manson_322Most of the simulated combat these days is much more intense than a real battle could provide. The F-22s philosophy has been proven in combat for 2 decades – while it is now exponentially better than its predecessors – with KE/PE and avionics advantages. Not to mention the ability to fight back.
I’m not a Raptor fanboy – I appreciate winning solutions – and advances in technology that leave other systems standing behind – I’m no american, I’ve lived in the States for a year – a bad experience in my life – I don’t support US policy – and I’m generally skeptical about supposed US superiority in all areas. But as I say I appreciate advances in tech – and the MIG-31 is simply not a rival to the F-22 – the term rival implies it is in the same league – which is simply isn’t. It will be just as possible for an F-22 to impose massive kill ratio’s against a Mig-31 as it is for it to hammer F-15s/16s at Red Flag.
Shooter radars asymtote’s against the F-22’s RCS class – in other words you would need hugely powerful radars to get the same detection ranges that other fighters get when they face each other. They just are not available for fighters – even with the big nose on the Mig. What does that do to the ranges where Russian radars can start to track a system like the F-22? Russian fanboys like yourself don’t even factor in things like IFF – they assume as soon as they get a radar blip on their screen they can shoot and score. In hostile ROE’s where the F-22 BVR dominance can’t be applied – the F-22 probably won’t be used – even though it still offers innate advantages.
i like your arguement LMraptor ,
Shooter radars asymtote’s against the F-22’s RCS class – in other words you would need hugely powerful radars to get the same detection ranges that other fighters get when they face each other.
what level of power of radar would be needed for mig-31 (in your opinion to detect the F-22)
then yes, potentially , Mig-31currently(without upgrade) will have to rely on GCI or kolchugaM/vega passive detection systems with datalinking , and what if the new russian radar may be capable of detecting the f-22 , at much longer ranges (70-100 km)
Russian fanboys like yourself don’t even factor in things like IFF
firstly, no fanboy of mig-31, but yes a fanboy of Tu-22m3 bomber and the AYAKS aerospace vessel
I do, and yes , my opening post was my main question …read…
so whats your opinion , will the mig-31 be better option than F-22 in dealing with airborne threats or even stealth fighters
so whats your opinion on the new upgrades and their capbilites
manson_322If I have not much “knowledgable” then U B have even less “knowledgable” . I B already “knowledgable” of Russian radars which B evident by my posts.
whers the proof , why you are a radar designer :rolleyes:
As is evident by my response I obviously did read your post that’s why I was laughing. Like others I read it again for another laugh.
ah, i remembered , you are an ignorant sheeple …
U R a funny kid. I suspect an upgraded MiG-31 would be somewhat of a threat to an F-22, but it is laughable that you claim it is a match.
read my post , again , a match in BVR capability, i know that mig-31 is not designed from stealth or WVR , its designed for speed(like predeccessor mig-25),BVR ….
Yeah but with your rhetoric you’re hyping it up so much that I expect you to say something like its seventh generation.
where did you get this nonsense from ???? when did i say , seventh generation??? are you suffering from delusions or illusions ??
The Soviets could not shoot down the SR-71 and they had many chances period. The SR 71 was going so fast that all it had to do is change the throttle position slightly or turn slightly and they could outrun any fighter and any missile and exhaust the hostile’s fuel before an intercept could be achieved. I suspect the only way it might be possible is if the target did not see the aggressor approaching. The Soviets couldn’t shoot down the SR 71 yet the Black Swift is supposed to be twice as fast, so I’m very skeptical that a Mig-31 could down a black swift.
as i can already see more nonsense spouted from you …..
SR-71 was intercepted several times by Mig-31 over international waters and soviet ROE intercepts of Sr-71 by mig-31 ,took place over international waters near soviet territory and the main goal was to force them to abandon mission …. also Soviet rules of engagement (ROE) did not permit pilots to fire missiles without affirmation to do so from superiors :
also SR-71 did not overfly soviet territory in 80’s :
also also Sr-71 avoided being shot down because it never left international airspace and entered Soviet territory after deployment of Mig-31
also , read page 280 , military 1st class pilot Mikhail Myagkiy intercepted Sr-71 in the Mig-31 from 1984 to 1987 14 times ….
from the book on Sr-71 ,check page 283 :
[QUOTE}
‘If the Sr-71 had violated Soviet airspace ,a live missile launch would have been carried out . there was practically no chance that the aircraft could avoid an R-33.But in the early 1980’s,the Blackbirds did not violate the borders,although they sometimes ‘tickled’ it
Indeed, the counter intelligience unit dreamt of finding pieces of Sr-71 ,if not land them in the territorial waters of the USSR
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xwPFC3GtcL8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=why+mig-31+did+not+shoot+down+sr-71&source=web&ots=ghLzsSGBik&sig=WEpZhe3IUN_oC4
[/QUOTE]
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread297490/pg1
on June 3, 1986 six MiG-31s performed a coordinated intercept against a SR-71 Blackbird on a training mission over the Barents Sea. This would have subjected the aircraft to an all-angle air-to-air attack which even its great speed and electronic countermeasures may not have been able to defeat. No missiles were fired (the interception took place over international waters) but the Soviets had certainly made their point.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Mikoyan-MiG-31&id=1352798
“The main power of the plane lie in targeting system, in detection range, locking, launching, in the amount of air targets it can track and engage, the frontline it can cover by itself or in group not to allow enemy aircrafts to approach protected objects.” – says Valeriy Knish.
By the experts opinion it was Mig-31 creation for US to retire Blackbirds. After Mig-31 creation this unique aircraft became vulnerable. After new Mig entered service and successfully performed several interceptions, US aviation activity had decreased greatly.
http://www.aviapedia.com/video/mig-31-foxhound-video-smotr
Get for real. Congress is 10,000 times more likely to shoot down the black swift. I suspect that a Mig-31 would have virtually no chance of shooting down a black swift unless the black swift did not take any evasive action, and if the Mig-31 had prior knowledge of the flight and the flight path.
please continue with your rants and silly claims , while russsians make weaponry and detection systems to enable the Mig-31 to deal with F-22 like threats , and to also to deal with the hypersonic crafts
manson_322Oh come on now Manson you don’t honestly believe the claims spouted by the Russian commander do you?
Of course it will be better then the old mig-31 but he’s got to say its going to be able to beat the Raptors and other stealth aircraft for not wanting to seem weak. I bet you any money the guy knows very well that its no match for a Raptor but he sure as hell wouldnt be stupid enough to say such a thing in public would he now for obvious reasons. How many hours a year do the RuAF mig-31 pilots get too?
currently the number of numbers of hours , for which Ruaf pilots train is increasing , thanks to high russian petro and gas profits
read this , a interview of Alexander Velovich — MiG Designer:
Does the openness of the American system ever work to its disadvantage?
No. And I know where this question leads. There is so much talking and writing about Russians implementing other countries’ achievements into our weapon systems. This was done but to about one-tenth the level that most Americans probably suspect. I’d like to quote chief designer of the MIG-29 and a man for whom I worked for many years Mikhail Waldenberg. He said “Seeing how your neighbor plows his field does not prevent you from pouring your sweat when you plow your own field.”
There was much speculation that the MIG-29’s radar was a copy of the Hughes’ APO-65 on the F/A-18. I swear this was not the case. The radars first of all are completely different. Russian radar designers went through their own paces to get what they got. We did acquire the APO-65 but it was too late in our design process to use it.
When an air-to-air missile was chosen for the MIG-29 in the early 1970s we had access to an AIM-7 Sparrow from North Vietnam. The missile was closely inspected and evaluated. We decided that it was not any better than our own R-27 missile (NATO-designated AA-10 Alamo) which was being developed for the MIG-29. The Sparrow was put on the shelf and forgotten.
The perception that we copied everything we could is not true. In fact I cannot think of one system in the MIG-29 that was copied from an American system. We went our own way and made our own mistakes. We tried of course to use foreign information to develop our system better. The MIG-29 and Su-27 have an infrared search and track and a laser rangefinder. There is no such system on the equivalent American fighters.
The MIG-31 had the first airborne phased-array radar with electronic scanning. The system permits you to throw the radar beam from one sector to another without having to mechanically move an antenna dish. Until your Advanced Tactical Fighter, not a single American fighter had an active phased-array radar with electronic scanning. Your first airborne electronic scanning radar, the APQ-164, was on the B-1B. It appeared about two or three years after the MIG-31 radar.
In his recent book, Fulcrum, Alexander Zuyev, a top MIG-29 pilot who defected to the West, documented that an American spy working at a Russian radar design and manufacturing bureau for many years gave away Russian secrets to America. I have not come across one mention of the possibility of Americans copying Russian radar technology even though the circumstances and timing seem to support this.
But I don’t believe that your APQ-164 was a copy of ours. People on both sides of the Atlantic work on common problems and come up with similar solutions.
When we first came to America with the MIG-29 in 1990, I kept hearing and reading that we copied the F-14 because Our aircraft looks like the F-14. They also said that we copied the F-18 because the MIG-29 looks like the F-18. Well, it’s true that all three aircraft have two fins and two engines.
Fortunately, the F-16 has a single engine and one fin, so I haven’t noticed anyone saying that we copied the F-16. But the F-15, F-14, and F-18 have two engines and two fins, so we copied each and all of them. I’ve read this in dozens of publications. Well, from the front, the MIG-29 resembles the F-14. From the side, an F-15. Its overall takeoff weight is similar to the F/A-18. So what?
People trying to meet approximately the same requirements come to approximately the same solutions. That’s physics, which is not colored in red, white, and blue – or red.
Assuming we’re incorrect in these beliefs, why do you think Americans accuse the Soviets of stealing technology?
You have achieved so much. Your country is a mighty world power. So you tend to see everything as proof of your own achievements. You express self-pride at the expense of self-criticism. Americans have always underestimated the skills of foreigners – Asians, Europeans, everyone else.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1993/articles/apr_93/apra_93.html
Oh come on now Manson you don’t honestly believe the claims spouted by the Russian commander do you?
and you honestly believe the claim that F-22 RCS is that of a marble????
but he’s got to say its going to be able to beat the Raptors and other stealth aircraft for not wanting to seem weak.
incorrect. He has stated that the upgrades will enable Mig-31 to be a formidable rival to fifth generation fighters
It is proven – mabye not in actual combat – but in many many large scale excercises the F-22 is getting to within visual range before being detected – from that alone you can get an idea of where the F-22s RCS sits in the dB scale. And unless you put a radar in the shooter wavelengths that is exponentially more powerful onto the Mig-31 it won’t make much difference unless the fight is numerically in favour of the Mig (by a large factor). Thats because the F-22s RCS asymtote’s shooter radars at around 5-30 km. You need to get that well above those numbers – probably closer to 120 km if you want a chance at BVR against it. Especially with the AMRAAM D going online. That’s going to require a ridiculously powerful radar – one you can’t fit into a fighter. That is not taking into account ECM either. While the F-22 will always present its best RCS to the opposition unless completely overwhelmed by numbers – due to systems like the ALR-94.
yes, proven in simulated combat NOT REAL COMBAT, like F-14 and Phoenix(proven in simulated combat) but in real combat, which were failures ,
That’s going to require a ridiculously powerful radar – one you can’t fit into a fighter.
firstly nothing is impossible, you talk like with a prejudice , and clearly you are a Raptor fanboy , by the way, i have stated that upgraded Mig-31 WILL BE FORMIDABLE RIVAL TO FIFTH GEN FIGHTERS, NOT THE BEST AIRCRAFT ON THE PLANET …
manson_322I guess they are not sure, either.
Syria is not exactly the benchmark for fighter procurement and haven’t had “a good hand” with its air defense decisions the last – let’s say – 40 years.I guess a 4D TVC will make it handle like a space craft.
Its not a match for it. It won’t be – let’s not feed the troll. Whatever incremental radar performance it has – just like the IRBIS – it will still fall far short of the F-22s RCS asymtote.
this is not proven , firstly and yes , mig-31 has a much larger nose cone that Su-35BM which uses the Irbis PESA
Perhaps suited to JASSM like 0.01 RCS targets – but thats a far cry fromwhat your going to get against an F-22.
that remains to be seen and proven too …
F-22 is no silver bullet , and with time anti-stealth radar and detection systems are catching up too……………….
manson_322Customers are queuing for the MiG-31, export orders are counted by the hundreds. Russian AF equips new squadron with new built MiG-31s.
… wait …
… they don’t …
… confused …
Syria recently purchased Mig-31BM or mig-31m (not sure which version)
Russian AF equips new squadron with new built MiG-31s.
many are in process of major upgrades, and many of those grounded in yeltsin and early Putin era are being brought back to service …
The weapons system of the MiG-31 is late 70ies tech and the absolute majority hasn’t been updated since.
I think an F-14D would make an adequate substitute, with the F-14 having clear advantages on weaponry, multirole capability, fighter vs fighter combat and – of course – simply economics. Procurement and operation of the MiG-31 is a money burner.
Zaslon-m was 80’s tech , and new radar is developed or been developed , not sure , but someone said its is known as zaslon-am
I think an F-14D would make an adequate substitute, with the F-14 having clear advantages on weaponry, multirole capability, fighter vs fighter combat and – of course – simply economics.
I think firebar ,showed many problems of f-14d on his thread on mig-25..
Procurement and operation of the MiG-31 is a money burner.
agreed …
because from data available in warfare.ru forum , the cost of mig-31BM with the is 90-110 million$ …… depends on the radar …
manson_322What next, slap a coat of radar absorbent paint on the Mig-31 and tout it a seventh generation air superiority stealth fighter?
Yeah sure it might have some limited capability at shooting down missiles and fair detection capabilities, however I still don’t think it is much of a fighter. To try to claim it as a rival of the F-22 is somewhat laughable.
seems you are not much knowledgable , i suggest you research more on the zaslon-m and other newer variants
Yeah sure it might have some limited capability at shooting down missiles and fair detection capabilities, however I still don’t think it is much of a fighter. To try to claim it as a rival of the F-22 is somewhat laughable.
read the opening post of the thread:
The MiG-31 modernization and overhaul program will be implemented at the Sokol aircraft plant in Nizhny Novgorod, in Central Russia.
Mikhailov said the modernized supersonic interceptor will become a formidable rival to all fifth-generation fighters, due to enhanced radar detection and tracking capabilities, and a wide array of advanced weaponry.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2006/russia-061108-rianovosti01.htm
in terms of BVR capabilities ,upgraded mig-31 will be match for F-22
to deal with f-22 in WVR, su-35bm or mig-35 will be sufficient , as they have 3d tvc , while f-22 has 2d tvc
What next, slap a coat of radar absorbent paint on the Mig-31 and tout it a seventh generation air superiority stealth fighter?
no, most russian sources state , its being upgraded to 4.5 generation++ , with much more advanced radar and weaponry to even DEAL WITH 6th generation Hypersonic craft like DARPA’s SR-72 ‘Blackswift’
manson_322the mig-31 is an excellent platform , and many regard it as 2nd best fighter due to its BVR capabilites, the best being F-22 (due to ‘stealth’)
manson_322there have been reports in lenta.ru that why Russia is scared in polish missile system is because the czech radar can scan airspace3 up to the ural mountains of european Russia
manson_322Well, an insider gave a clue that weaponbays are not three, Raptor in fact has four 🙂 .
which insider ?? sources ?:?
manson_322in my opinion , Eurofighter typhoon or Su-35 BM are better options than JSF,
the Eurofighter has PIRATE IRST , which will enable it to deal the F-22 threat , effectively
manson_322S-400 integrated with Kolchuga or Vega systems(passive detection) can stop used to detect and bring down F-22 / or other Stealth Systems …
Sign In
