Tom HScorpion89
Do not put words in my mouth please.
All along I have said the system should be followed.
We follow the system, will continue to, but no system is perfect and there are always those that don’t do their homework or just bluntly try and beat the system or cheat the system.
I gave an outline of how I see it is supposed to work…looks pretty clear to me.
Tom H
Tom HThank you Avion Ancien
We do the best we can with what we have and keep getting better.
Our collection is now at 38 ether on display or under restoration.
From 1918 to 1979 covering both Edmonton’s commercial and military history.
Appreciate the kind words
Tom H
Tom HSo I can see we are going to agree and disagree…
First, of all I have never and will not speak directly to the Calagary Mossie.
Second, it is not necessarily this specific airframe but the overall history it represents. Because we can’t find airframes with specific history to Canada we shouldn’t tell that part of the histroy? Come on. Yes I am familiar with most of the Spartan type including the Ventura being restored in our facility by the VMFA.
You think I was happy the CWH got to sell the Corsair?…get serious, they got it out using the law…no one else at the time had the coin to go for it.
They folowed the rules, took the steps and did the deal. As have most of the PBY’s. At least Canadians got first shot and that is what this is all about.
Thanks to our being unable to compete even when due process is followed the only way we will bget a PBY is to do an arctic recovery.
The legislation in fact was not put in place with Aircraft in mind, but other artifacts. BTW I am reasonably familiar with armour as we partner in displaying the Historic Vehicle Troop from the Lord Strathcona Horse. And the deal you remark on is just as wrong to many as others that have happened in the past.
History to the highest bidder is in my opinion wrong for any country..but is something in this age we seem to have to live with. Doesn’t make it right.
Each day we loose more and more of the people that made the history, they are what is really important, all we can do is tell their story using what we can get of artifacts of the day…when the originals are gone we must make do… when we are cut off completely what does that say of our society?
We all need to protect our countries ability to prsent and educate future generations ability to see feel and touch the history that was made by their fore fathers…without reasonable legislation the Museums don’t even get a shot…anywhere.
My opinion
Tom H
Tom HBruce/Eddie
Our Mossie was done long ago as part of a complex deal…similar to Calgary our aircraft is owned in part by the City of Edmonton and another organization.
At the time the airframe was rescued from outside storage a condition of the deal was it being converted to Russ Bannocks 418 Squadron aircraft.
The airframe was saved, it is preserved and as I commented some time ago when time and money come together the balance of the work to accurately represent the Bannocks aircraft will be done.
The aircraft is an older restoration done before policies were in place and when it comes due it will be corrected.
Straight and simple…sometimes you don’t get to call all the shots to save an airframe…you even make mistakes, but they can be corrected.
I personally would love to see a Mossie in Spartan colours, but who knows?
We don’t even have enough information to know whats really happening.
Yak 11 Fan
My point is the overall importance…
Tom H
PS
Thanks Mark
Tom HHi BLR
How you put it on the market becomes a board/personal decision…
Personally I would offer the fictional aircraft in Canada first, then abroad. But the facts are serious buyers would catch the information ether way.
Remeber too…
Aircraft types that have no provenance to Canadian History, say a L-39, do not have to deal with this system.
Now as to our Museum selling any aircraft…can’t imagine it happening, not on my watch.
The unfortunate part is most of the aircraft on our acquisition list are
1) Large
2) Non existant in Canada
3) Expensive
So now we will have to find ways to compete with the deep pocket collector to even get static suitable aircraft on the list…..darn.
Anybody gotta a C-119 they need to get rid of…(LOL)
How aboout a Bristol freighter???? Hurricane??? P-39???
Didn’t think so
Tom H
Tom HFacts seem to be short so….
In an attempt to show how things should be working I will use a completely different aircraft as an example.
Lets say our Museum wanted to sell our B-25 (NO WE DO NOT)
1) The board would discuss, make the decision and assign a value
(Never happen with the B25)
2) At a general meeting of the membership the board would ask the
membership for permission to sell the aircraft.
(Who would then lynch the board for trying to sell the B25)
3) According to the Aviation Museums of Alberta MOM that we signed we
would then offer the B25 to the other Alberta Aviation Museums.
(if there were no takers)
4) As members of CAPA and a CAPA MOM signatory we would then have to
offer the aircraft to the other Canadian Aviaton Museums.
(if there were no takers)
5) We would advise Heritage Canada of the steps we have taken, make it
understood we had met all obligations and would advise we were putting
on the open market.
6) We would offer the aircraft on the open market.
Say a Peruvian private individual chose to buy it…
1) A deal would be struck and the buyer advised of the steps taken and the
rules to be followed.
2) We would contact Heritage Canada advising of the sale and confirm our
paper work was on file. Some additional forms would be filed by buyer and
seller…await appropriate rubber stamps.
3) The aircraft would leave the country, clean, easy, no debate.
If you skip steps the mess begins…I cannot comment on the Mossie sale, I have no first hand information on what has or has not been done.
Lets say you are a New Zealander who wishes to recover an Anson from a remote site in Canada.
1) You would contact the Province or Territory that administers the site to
confirm the rules and regulations, even if it is on private property.
(They do vary a bit from one to another)
2) You would contact Heritage Canada to advise them of your interest.
3) You would advise CAPA of your intent and ask for support.
4) You make applications as required to the Province/Territory and Federal
government have permissions granted and go get your Anson.
If you skip a step…back in the mud
Similar proceedure for purchasing a wreck or restoration privately, actually a little easier.
Now I have simplified it to fit the thread…but it is not onnerous, but skip the process and you are into a mess.
It is also fair…Canadian interests get first kick…they can’t match, no issue it leaves.
The guys that have generally gotten into trouble are those that have not followed due process.
This all came about because of the by passing of Provincial/Territoral and Federal laws. The overwhelming majority of those that have had problems didn’t do their home work. Or poachers that tried to do it on the sly.
So that is the real rough nickle tour of the system…if you are really wanting to use the system I would recommend contacting CAPA (Canadian Aeronautical Preservation Association) for the true rock hard details, but the above is the jist of it.
When the facts come out from the Calgary Mossie we will know if the system was followed.
Till then I can only hope ( as I have said before)it turns into a deal where everyone wins.
We are not holding back from the world…just putting Canadian interests first.
Hope that makes things clearer and easier to understand.
Tom H
Tom HGood evening Galdri
Sorry for the delay, but there are other things than just this topic on my plate.
To your question on other museums interest on this specific airframe…don’t know, it has never been offered. This debate and the trival amount of accurate information is the first anyone has heard of it!!!
Are there museums that have the capability to come up with the $$$$ and resources…yes and a few private Canadians. But till this exploded on the net no one knew it was availabile.
As to Calgary’s details…they are a private not for profit society accepting money from the City of Calgary, the Province of Alberta, the Government of Canada and private/corporate donations….the same as our museum.
Beyond that I will not comment on this specific aircraft (as I have no first hand info and won’t comment till I do) or the Aerospace Museum of Calgarys policies etc., for that call them…we have our hands full with our facility I don’t stick my nose in their business.
But I hope that answers your questions the best I can.
Scorpion 89
1) I do not dive into specifics, if I don’t have enough information to speak
rationally (as with the specifics on the Calgary Mossie) to them I won’t.
2) As to the US Navy…my point was not wheter I agree or disagree with
their polices, just that the US has a piece meal system not complete
legislation.
3) Mossies in lakes, great I will pass that on to the CAPA member museums
and there will be interest. Not from us…we have one thank you.
As to your tone…..
The other reason I will not speak to this specific Mossie aircraft is there is a whole bunch of speculation and little documented hard fact.
Said it before, say it again…I hope this deal turns win win for everyone. In the meantime we wait to see what the facts are, could be better than the speculation, could be worse…I’m waiting for the facts.
Tom H
Tom HRPSmith
Your post was enjoyable…
As I understand it at this point there are no confirmed $$$ being made public only speculation. What was being speculated was CDN $ 1.0M to CDN $ 1.5M less the cost of the Hurricane.
I have no first hand idea how accurate that information is…so I wait and watch.
While I know it was tongue in cheek…the idea we should get someone elses Mossies I would not support…everyone has a right to their history. My point was and is we all need to do whatever we can to keep and present what we have.
Thanks
Tom H
Tom HJ Boyle
First of all I am not speaking to the Calgary aircraft specifically…nor will I as I do not have the detailed inside knowledge of the transaction proposed or their needs, desires, wishes. Without that information speculation is useless.
I have been and will continue to address the greater issue of Preserving Canadian History…especially rare or near non existant items.
Wartime record is not a ruse…to the best of my knowledge THERE ARE NO RCAF MOSSIES LEFT. As with a number of other very important airframes.
So we need to make do with what we can get to celebrate and represent the history of our country.
No where have I said it is better to leave an aircraft out of sight/unrestored vs having it restored and displayed.
But if Canadians have the ability to save what is considered an important to us why shouldn’t we get first shot.
As with the “Connie” if it is important, but if Canadians cannot support the acquisition and restoration, then it goes. Simple as that. Thats how the Cultural legislation works.
But through out this thread what I have seen is “We are more important than you“, “History is for sale” etc, etc.
I hope the UK gets another Mossie in the air…personally I hope a new build as to not risk such a rare type. If no Canadian person or organization can step up to the plate that may well happen with this airframe…thats how the legislation works.
As with most things there are more than two options.
But through out this thread what I have seen is “We are more important than you“, “History is for sale” etc, etc.
The one I like the most is the “Greater Good” of the Historic aircraft movement, but like the “Global Economy” whats good for one may be disaster for another.
That is what I have addressed through out my posts and will continue to, but not here, this thread is going in circles now and without more accurate information there is no resolution.
I take nothing in the discussion personally…these are my opinions and I trust are taken as such and not personally. But here we agree to disagree.
Tom H
Tom HYak 11 Fan
In response to the question of the value of a Mosquito to Canada…
It’s not the issue of where it was built gentlemen or this specific airframe…but how it was used and what it represents in our history.
Some examples of why Mossies are important to Canada:
1) 418 City of Edmonton Squadron, Intruders, Highly decorated, huge
contributions to the effort in WW2.
2) Russ Bannock, one time CO of 418 Sqn, once know as the
“Savior of London” for his talents in eliminating V1’s, also one of the
important Mosquito aces. Member of the Canadian Aviation Hall of Fame.
3) Bob Boyden, Edmontonian, DFC with Bar, flying with the RAF! Took on
several missions where no expectation of survival was pointed out up front.
I could go on but the Mossie is a very important piece of wartime history
in Canada. Many Canadians flying them with the RAF!
Seems we are easy to forget in our contributions to the victories and the
losses sustained in WW2.
4) Spartan Aerial Surveys, used the Mossie extensively in the
comprehensive mapping of Canada, especially Canada’s North. Completing
a massive task that had been attempted many times. helping make
possible the DEW line and the Pine Tree line.
I could go on and on…but these examples start to point out the importance.
So yes Yak 11 Fan the Mossie is important to us.
Twin Otter 23
Thanks for the info…sounds similar to our legislation but without the direct bite. Its nice at least to see that the importance is recognized and there is a mechanizm to deal with similar issues.
Tom H
Tom HI have not commented on the Hurricane for good reason, no one knows who is doing it or what the real deal is. As far as where its restored, I would think that be it the Canada or the UK it could be done equally well…depending on who is doing it.
The Halifax…
Seems we talk apples and oranges…
The Halifax was a recovery…with all permissions, funded by Canadians, with no out cry from anywhere else. And with the Cultural property legislation its up front, you know you may have to deal with it and it is not retroactive. Once the deal is approved its over.
The other fact that annoys me on this topic is that everyone seems to think Calgary or the UK, period.
Gee there are many great Canadian Museums and if they have the chance will likely want the aircraft. (We don’t already got one…).
As to provenance…the aircraft in question actually operated for a time from the hangar that now operates as our museum. We have pictures and archival material supporting its Canadian importance…so if we chose to get involved, which we have not, there is more than enough to show its importance.
But what I am seeing at this point from the comments is..”history is for sale”..
“I don’t care about you only me”…what a shame.
Little wonder public aviation museums across the world are staggering under financial pressures and low volunteer counts.
Lindys Lad…my hat is off to you and your compatriots for keeping NEAM alive if these are the conditions you face. I hope you succeed and if we can help let me know.
Oh yes and as to e-mailing the mayor and alderman…please do!!!
The last time they were flooded with e-mails on a topic from overseas the backlash was huge…multi million dollar project cancelled.
History is not a commodity…it is something paid for by others, oft in blood as you should well know.
To treat it as a global product with no regard to its importance is simply wrong and short sighted.
To be clear…I have no issue in most cases with aircraft changing hands across borders, but Canadian Legislation is there for the rare occassions where our history needs protected.
I am shocked the UK has no similar legislation…the US does it in bites and drabs with things like the US Navy policies on ALL US Naval aircraft.
So I wish you all well but as we have clearly come to an impass I see no reason to beat this horse futher.
To the City of Calgary and its Museum…I hope when the smoke clears it all works out to a win win deal…what ever that may be.
Just my personal opinions…
Next topic
Tom H
Tom HIn general
I agree with Beurling…
While I don’t want to speak to the Calgary Mossie specifically, taking action to protect what is deemed import to preserve is responsibility of the Government.
That does not mean block each and every sale…and history shows Canada has not…but in some cases I can see it being necessary.
That is not to say we don’t support other countries getting aircraft from Canada.
Even where the aircraft is the only example of the type there are sometimes reasons to support it’s recovery even if it goes out of country.
Our museum at the CAPA confrence recently supported the proposed recovery of the only Lincoln in Canada, by an Australian museum team.
Their provenance is greater on this aircraft and we felt it important to support the cause. An important factor in our decision was we could find no Canadians interested or able to tackle the project at this time. CAPA agreed and I understand are supporting the proposal.
If a Canadian Museum or Museums had a claim or felt it was a project they would eventually tackle it would have been different, or if the aircraft in question had an important provenance to Canada it would have been different, but the feeling was being the only wasn’t enough.
If an aircraft in the public trust can’t find a practical home in Canada (Connie) then prohibiting the sale is a non issue…but to blanket say it’s bad legislation does not reflect properly on the importance of our history…or yours.
The aircraft in question will have it’s deal run it’s course…hopefully everyone wins.
And bear in mind…the Mosquito has a very important history in Canada, Wartime and Civil. Our country is huge and with only (4) here it means most enthusiasts will never…never see one unless they can afford to travel thousands of Kilometers.
That is the real shame.
As to private owners being patriotic and not selling their aircraft…a very few take that stand (Mike Potter, Vintage Wings…my hat is off to this man) but most allow the buck to rule…and not just in Canada.
It happens too much today…history for a price, but when it’s gone, then what? The Spitfire mentioned is a good example.
Tom H
Tom HJ Boyle
While I can sympathize with your comments I would like yoou to consider this…
If history is for sale to the highest bidder…who does it really belong to?
I think the government was wise to put the legislation into place…otherwise less ethical indivuals would be able to poach the little that remains of our Canadian History and flog it to the highest bidder.
What would you say if this was a Victoria Cross won in Battle and the family was just flogging it for big bucks?
The legislation has only rarely been inforced, and then only in Canadian interests, preserving OUR history for OUR children.
If I sound a little greedy you are right…I will never own a warbird of any value, but I spend my days fighting to maintain our museums ability to showcase our history and it ain’t easy. We have to compete with deep pocket private collectors and speculators to acquire and restore aircraft and artifacts, as a non government funded not for profit.
Canada’s contribution in both Wars, Korean and many other conflicts is oft belittled, ignored or otherwise unrecognized by our allies. Yet our contributions were just as important and needed.
As to the very few remaining Canadian Sabres and Mustangs, I would not be surprised in the same situation you would get the same reaction for Canadians.
As for repercussions….on what? We have already been tapped for the best of our historic aircraft…think of the ones from Canada in your homeland.
Canadians need to wake up…if we do not care take, present and promote our history…who will.
As to this particular aircraft deal…it will fall where it may. I can, as I already stated, hope it works out for the best for all involved.
BTW can you just imagine the screaming in England if Paul Allen wa to attempt to get Vulcan 558? Shoe would be on the other foot then.
Tom H
Tom HCBC radio tried to draw us in on this fight yesterday and we dodged the bullet.
That said…
Yes the Mossie is a very important aircraft in many many ways to Canadian History. MIlitary/Civil/Survey and other uses.
The Cultural Property legislation is Canada does have serious teeth and could block the transfer of this aircraft..fact of life that the Canadian Government put the legislation in place to protect artifacts from being lost to the Citizens of Canada…and while I appreciate the ownership comments, in some cases it is appropriate to protect our heritage.
There are a number of Museums in Canada that would love to have this aircraft and could give it a suitable home. We will see how things play out.
While I will not comment on the issue, I will say I hope this works out in the end for both the Calagary Museum and Canada’s history and Aviation enthusiasts…this is a case where everyone needs to win.
Seems like time for Calgarys oil money to step up and assist the Museum in keeping and restoring this aircraft.
A sad state of affairs when history has to be put on the auction block to make the finances of museums work.
Wake up Canada
Tom H
Tom HI’ve heard the same rumor on the expertice of North American builders…
I also have no reason to question it.
One factor that often gets left out is that in North America the Merlin was used for many other forms of competition in large quantities…
Hydroplane racing
Tractor pulls
Bonniville Salt Flats
Drag racing
and surprisingly enough the aircraft supercharged Merlin was a popular pump engine for many decades in the oil flields of Western Canada!!!
So I don’t necessarily think the rumor comes from better skills or talent…just us North Americans have played with more of them in strange applications giving us a unique background with them.
I know from friends in the Tractor pull game, before aircraft engines were basically discouraged out of the competitions the Merlin was the preffered engine.
BTW same can be said of the Allison V series when it comes to wide spread uses.
Just a thought
Tom H
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