JangBoGoAfter sinking so much money into one capital ship..there was no practical option other than selecting asbestos! Does not say well about what the IN thinks about its personnel though.In India , cost of a human life is cheap and the armed forces are no exception.And this is exactly why India will remain a third world country despite excelling in several fields.
Anyhoo , close monitoring is in order for signs of deterioration of the lining during usage.
you forget to mention the wide use of asbestos in houses all around in India. 😉
Asbestos causes cancer no two ways about it.
There is a reason why IN didnt want it in the first place. No developed country uses asbestos in their shipbuilding.
Its a separate matter that IN had no other viable option as things turned out. But that does not negate the fact that asbestos is harmful to the health and its use is prohibited in most countries not only in shipbuilding but any type of construction.In the past millions of people have died of industrial asbestos exposure in the US and worldwide.India or for that matter Russia , China etc are a separate story altogether.Its not as if the boiler lining is a naturally occuring form.The mineral has to be mined , then processed and the lining manufactered in a factory which presents an occupational hazard to the miners and the factory workers too. Regulations need to be made more strict in those countries if not ban its use altogether.Its not a question of “proper” installation , use of asbestos in any form is not advisable.
…. INS Viraat uses 4 boilers and earlier we operated INS Vikrant with boilers. How about the two boilers on the $48milion junk we bought from the U.S which has already killed many Indians onbaord?
US will be ready to sell more of their boiler equipped warships in that class as they will not have to deal with the asbestos related problem when the ship is being dismantled.
Hopefully it will be installed properly but it is still storing problems for the future and going against global standards that India has signed up for!
This project has been bungled at every stage and suggesting that the installation of a problem material is good or a victory for common sense is asinine!
They could have looked for suppliers around the globe…
Btw, is there any substitute that is available/manufactured in the West or UK for asbestos?
JangBoGohttp://www.balancer.ru/sites/i/c/ic.pics.livejournal.com/igorriw/19720361/25971/25971_original.jpg
Great photo!
Superb! 😎
That island in the middle is the only eyesore. Is there any strong photoshopper who is capable to shift that massive island to the edge?
JangBoGoIndia has not bought the Aster-30 in the first place so there’s no question of investing in improving it. We rejected both that and the S-300/400 family to buy the Israeli Barak-8. Even in the past when we were actively shopping around for a long-range SAM/ABM system we wanted the Arrow-2 and not the S-300.
Just adding that to the discussion. Russian SAMs are not as dominant as you think, nor is budget size the ultimate factor in the effectiveness of a SAM.
what experience do Israel have in terms of AD missiles prior to Barak-8??
hmmm….I don’t know how Indians get so much convinced by the Isreali brochures… Arrow would not have happened without American help and that American help would not have probably happened if the Russians had not sold the S-300 to the U.S.
JangBoGoIs that a photo from Stereguschy’s engine control room?
Yes. You are absolutely correct! 🙂
So what are the Mistral plans, exactly? RIA Novosti reported in February that the first one (Vladivostok?) was laid down in Saint-Nazaire around that time (link), but now the first hull was laid down in St. Petersburg for later delivery to France? What did the French DCNS “lay down” in February then?
In short we can say that the Frenchies gave Russians the ar$e in Mistral deal…. 😀
Russia would be making the ar$e for Mistral and will be sending it to France where it will be integrated with the rest of what the French built.
Also note the ranges of the missiles: between 220 and 550km max range.
A carrier / CBG will maintain a ‘bubble’ within which it will attempt to kill launch platforms rather than missiles.
Do you think that fight will happen at these extreme ranges?
This speaks of a carrier invulnerability myth and states:
“America’s nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, especially in today’s irregular, asymmetric warfare climate, could be little more than slow-moving targets.”
as well as
“a deployed aircraft carrier is more vulnerable to mission kill than is commonly believed”However, take not that the author talkes about mission kill, which is not the same as sinking. Carriers are very resilient ships. See e.g. USS Hornet the last U.S. fleet carrier ever sunk by enemy fire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hornet_(CV-8)
True, mission kill always need not have to be an aircraft carrier sunk.
In that video you will also see them mentioning about 2-3 missiles out of 8 in the salvo to reach its target. Those 2-3 missiles may or may not be enough to sink the carrier in one go.
But if a carrier is hit, there definitely will be fireworks. In that case what would be the likely response from other members of the unit? —- to help out the carrier and save the thousands of crew on board the carrier. Probably only the SSNs wll go hunting…..
INS Vikramaditya is a sitting duck now with not a single AD system.
JangBoGoI think it would be best if India pulled out of the Il-214 project and instead went for C-130. India gains no technical base / experience with the Il-214 since it has no input in it other than a few avionics. So instead we could go for the best in industry plane in that category, C-130, and have it license built by Tata.
Tata would gain aircraft building experience instead of wasting more money on that failed PSU known as HAL.
I agree that India should simply dump the MTA program. the MTA has gone nowhere and there is really precious little to gain by collaborating with the Russians on that anyway. But, as things stand, HAL is still slated to go ahead with it..sometime in the future..:rolleyes:
The better option would’ve been to go with Embraer on the KC-390. India would’ve given an order much larger than that of any other customer currently involved in the program and could have as a result contributed more as well.
As both of you correctly pointed out, India can contribute nothing to the project, similar case to PAK-FA, and can only watch from the sidelines what Ilyushin has already developed/developing. But it would be the same case with KC-390 or the old lady with new clothes & lipsticks, C-130J. In addition to it, there won’t be any Technology transfer. All India can get is buy it off the shelf at a significantly higher price/unit than MTA’s price tag.
In the case of IL-214, with or without India’s support, Russia will move forward with the project when they feel that platform is required for their forces. For the past 12 years, the situation was different and their top project priority did not involve IL-214/MTA. i.e why Russia did not keep aside any state funds for its development. As and when the projects at the top of the priority list gets completed, the current lower level projects will raise to the top of the list and in the next 5 years MTA will reach the level of priority where full development funds will be allocated, if there is no partner already available to share its development cost.
In the current scenario, they are probably planning/looking for/at 2020 time frame (till which they can delay its induction). So you can expect the Russians to wait till 2015 and even stretch it to 2017 to see a progress from the Indian side w.r.t to the only contribution that Russia needs from India for that project – finance! After that timeline, with or without Indian finance the project will move forward. If you guys have any doubt, just wait & see what will happen if India does not move ahead with finance.
Official figures projected for the IL-214/MTA.
Friday, September 10, 2010
Ministry of DefenceAGREEMENT FOR SETTING UP OF JVC FOR DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT OOF MULTIROLE TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT SIGNED
11:30 IST
The effort to design and develop a Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) by India and Russia received a significant boost with the signing of shareholders agreement for setting up of a joint venture company, here last night.
A Joint Venture will now be formed between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and the Russian Partners namely United Aircraft Corporation & Rosoboronexport to Co-develop and Co-produce Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA).
MTA is a 15-20 tonne payload capacity Aircraft which would meet the requirement of the Indian Air Force and the Russian Air Force. The project has been approved by both the Government of India and the Government of Russian Federation.
The main features of MTA are: Maximum take-off weight 65 tonnes, Payload Capacity 15-20 tonnes, Cruise Speed 800 kmph, Range 2500-2700 km, Service ceiling 12 km. The Aircraft will have two engines, state of the art features such as fly-by-wire, full authority digital engine control, modern avionics and glass cockpit.
The total development cost is around US $ 600.70 million (approx Rs.2900 crores) to be equally shared by both the sides. It is planned to manufacture 205 aircraft with 50:50 work share between HAL and the Russian partners.
A Joint Venture Company (JVC) is being established with its headquarters at Bangalore, India for executing the MTA project in which HAL and Russian participants will have equal shareholding.
From HAL press release.
HAL signs contract for developing MULTIROLE TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT for India
Bangalore, 29th May 2012 : Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., the aerospace major in the country, has reached another major milestone when it signed the tripartite General Contract with United Aircraft Corporation -Transport Aircraft (UAC-TA), the Russian partner & their JV-Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd.. (MTAL) for the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) project on Monday, 28th May, 2012.
HAL has been manufacturing transport aircraft at TAD, Kanpur namely Avros HS-748 and Dornier Do-228.
A total of 89 Avros has been manufactured with first delivery in April 1964 and 89th aircraft delivery in September 1984. HAL has also carried out a number of upgrades and customization of these aircraft. HAL is maintaining the fleet.
HAL has manufactured 116 Dorniers till date with first delivery in 1984 and the 116th in March 2012 and the same are being maintained by Kanpur division. Two Do-228 maritime aircraft have been exported to Mauritius. HAL has taken up manufacturing of structural assemblies of Do-228 for Ruag Aerospace, Germany and has supplied eight sets so far. Export of one Do-228 to Seychelles is under progress.
HAL will carry out design & development of its workshare of MULTIROLE TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT at Aircraft R&D (ARDC) Centre at Bangalore while its Transport Aircraft Division (TAD) at Kanpur will manufacture the prototypes and subsequently the serial production will be at Kanpur where dedicated facilities are being set up. HAL’s other R&D Centres and manufacturing divisions will share development of systems & LRU’s and manufacture of components, sub assemblies and composite structure. HAL will showcase its expertise in design of aircraft as well as systems, manufacturing & flight testing while jointly working with the Russian team in Moscow as well as in India.
Indian and Russian governments had earlier signed an Inter Governmental Agreement for joint design, development & production of MTA on 50:50 sharing basis and had decided to form a JV between HAL, UAC-TA & Rosoboronexport to execute the project.
The primary objective is to achieve self-reliance in design & development and production of aircrafts of this size and also to manage the programme with international collaboration and large number of global suppliers.
The aircraft will be designed for the roles of cargo/troop transportation; para-drop /air drop of supplies including Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES) and is to be co-developed by HAL and UAC & Rosoboronexport of Russia through a Joint Venture Company (JVC).
HAL & UAC-TA has proposed to Design, Develop and Produce Multirole Transport Aircraft in the 15-20 tone class, jointly by Indian and Russian Agencies to meet the requirement of 100 aircraft for the Russian Air Force, 45 aircraft to the IAF and 60 for the third countries. Total requirement for the present is 205.
The MTA project preliminary design will start immediately on signing the follow up contract on preliminary design on which tripartite discussions have been concluded.
HAL is convinced of the benefit as HAL has never designed or built an aircraft of this size. Since we all know Russians often take very stupid decision, we can clearly see that stupidity here also. For just 45 aircraft, they are parting away with the huge profits that can be reaped from the future sales. All these for the need of just $300.35 million 😮
On the economical side, this JV is almost a loss-making deal or lets say zero-minimal profit margin deal for Russia in the long run. I wont fault them, bcoz they are still in the Soviet era in terms of business and does not even know the basics of good business and the benefit of calculated risk in a project development.
The entire development cost is projected at $600.7million of which just $300.35million is what India will need to pay for the deal.
If India walks out of it and Russia develop it on their own, they will need to sell just 12-13 x MTA @ $50million/unit (which is less than 1/3rd the cost of C-130J) to recover the sunken development cost. If the project cost is doubled, then they will need to sell 24-25 aircraft to recover that amount.
If Russia sells it at $80million/unit (less than half the price of C-130J), they can recover the sunken cost with sale of just 7-8 aircraft.
If they can sell this IL-214 in any open tender deal for 45 aircrafts in the future @50-80million/unit, they will be able to make no less than $2.25 – $3.6 billion in sales with an initial investment of $600.7 million!
In short, due to the complete lack of proper business approach, Russia is actually throwing away the profits which they could have reaped from the MTA sales. What Russia really needs is not western football coaches for their clubs & national team, they need to hire some ex-CEOs from west or Indians to chart out a course on how to market their product/concept and make good profit margins from it.
Btw, MTA was proposed in 1999-2000 and it was India who dragged its feet and in the process also got targeted by lobbyist. We now have that lobby in front of us in the form of US product promoters inside India & Tata. By delaying it, they might have made good profit & commission from Indian tax-payers money with the sale of C-130J. Whoever in India dragged the MTA project this long had the intend of helping the sale of C-130J @ $160.4million/unit to the IAF. Nothing else defines the delay on a project which is/was clearly tilted in favor of HAL upping its design & development capability through this JV.
JangBoGoSo, by throwing money on three (IIRC?) all-new UAV’s in different classes, one of which is heavy class (read: X-47B) they are doing what exactly?
Are you not mentioning the RAC-MiG project SKAT… But hasn’t that project been stopped?
They need not throw money on all three, just ask Sukhoi to develop the biggest one with underwing (2 each) pylons that can carry a total of 8 or 16 light weight missiles with thermobaric warheads.
It would be a good asset in battlefields like what we are seeing in Syria now…. God forbid, and let me be proven wrong…… I see a 3rd conflict in Chechnya if the Syrian army is not able to eliminate the terrorists there….and in such conflicts, army & armour causality can be reduced significantly by using armed drones…
JangBoGoIs there problem with A-190 (E?)….??? :confused:
Pr.20380 uses the new 16-cyl diesel units and it have always puzzled me, why Rubin likes to maintains two 8-cyl diesel units on Pr.877/636 & Pr.677 even though higher power & larger 16-cyl diesel units are available.
JangBoGoSame engines?
On a different note:
http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2012/9/27/1236/
Whaaaaaaaaaaat???:confused: Mig-29M2 export to Iraq?
I think Russia should not rush into the contracts and keep away that Mi-28NE from exports. Better they promote the Mi-35M and gainsales for it. 35M much better than the earlier 24/35 and would be good enough for the Iraqis.
w.r.t to to the MiG-29M2, itz good news. But I hope they charge “market” price rather than stupid low prices.
One of the impacts of the Libyan conflict was the latest Russian weapons getting into the hands of terrorists (both organised and unorganised) and Syria have much more newer Russian systems. It is also one of the reasons why Russia is still supporting the Govt.
Regarding AN-70…
I don’t think it is going to benefit Russia. They should have better funded and continued the Tu-330 project. Even if Russia support Ukranian industry, they will still be sending weapons to Georgia and other scums which will be used to fight against Russia.
“Fazotron” creates a foundation for the radar of the 6th generation
Corporation “Fazotron-NIIR”, celebrating these days its 95th anniversary, has established a scientific foundation for the development of radar for military aircraft of the 6th generation, the general designer Yuri Guskov Corporation.
Why can’t they produce a podded Zhuk-AE radar for naval use?….it would be a good replacement for the current illuminators/guidance unit for Shtil-I and other AD missiles on the Russian ships.
JangBoGoHow do you think India’s newly developed light combat helicopter will fare against Pakistani and Chinese air defences?
what about the likely price difference between the two…?
JangBoGohttp://lenta.ru/news/2012/09/27/uavs/
Kazakhstan bought a batch of Irkut-10 UAVs.
Russia needs to give priority to UAV & combat drones. The conflict in Syria shows how needy & useful unmanned combat drones can be in fighting those terrorists. Russia need to develop one on top priority and supply it to Syria, even if not, Russia will need such unmanned drones in the future to fight the Islamic terrorists.
If Iran or China can manage to provide operational unmanned strike drone to Syrian Army, it would have a big impact in fighting those terrorists scums.
Btw, Irkut should can try to develop more potent UAV
http://www.irkut.com/en/services/projects/muas/
What happened to Sukhois unmanned drone projects, has they been closed completely?
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/projects/bpla/complex/
Belarus have made some head way in selling their stuffs
http://www.unmanned.co.uk/unmanned-vehicles-news/unmanned-aerial-vehicles-uav-news/cuba-interest-in-belarusian-unmanned-aerial-vehicle/
JangBoGoX-post of Austin from Commercial aviation…
Very nice presentation of MS-21. Rosoboronexport should be investing in such good presentation to give their probable customers a good virtual view into MPA based on Tupolev Tu-204. Such presentations will help a lot in generating interests from probable customers on products in today’s world…
Irkut MC-21 tour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgYJQGB4moo
JangBoGoHelicopters on the modern battlefield should be viewed as Uhlans rather than Cuirassiers. They are not able to survive heavy defences. Mobility and utility are the words, which in my opinion makes the whole heavy attack helicopter game questionable. I’d rather take a suped-up UH-60 over an AH-64.
But Russia have been inducting lots of choppers and the largest number of flying combat machines they have inducted and are going to induct in the future are the helo gunships…
Since one of the Indian requirement was a mast mounted radar the outcome of the tender was crystal clear, they are trying to reinvent the wheel for political reasons, brivery or both.
Its basically about a highly prized asset like AH-64 & its cost-effectiveness in a competent battlefield. AH-64s battlefield experience till now have been without any strong opponents which is not going to be the case when it is employed against Pakistan or China or against Russia by NATO.
JangBoGoLets enjoy some pics of the carrier that is currently in service and the one which is to join in the future (unless the Russians gain some brain and keep that ship for herself).
Couldn’t find more suitable pic from similar angles…
INS Viraat
INS Vikramaditya
From balancers…. video after the ship returned to Severodvinsk. Video include nice short footage of the lift operation, hanger and among others view from helo..
http://stv-online.ru/obshhestvo/4294-avianosec-vernulsya.html
There is lots more discussion going one, hope Snake or anyone else post the important points….
JangBoGoSearched the site..no english version, only Russian…
http://www.sevmash.ru/rus/news/1333-l-r.html
The translation says, maximum achieved speed (read the speed sustained..) during the sea trials was 27.9 knots.
JangBoGoIf the Russians are friendly only as long as India buys Russian weapons, regardless of their quality & price, then Russia is not a good friend. The answer for Russia is to improve what they offer, not get upset.
Its only Indians who are thinking that Russia is getting upset after reading articles. Not the Russians. After-sales service is an area that Russia needs to seriously look into. On the other hand it is the Yanks who are getting upset very often even after getting so many multi-billion contracts and as if that was not enough, Govt is parroting their line on many international affairs, which in the future could even be detrimental to Indian security.
So basically, deals with Russia comes with complete political freedom, where as deals with America comes with American $tick in Indian mouth – No more independent talk/decisions. We are seeing one example of that with cutting import of Iranian crude etc, even though ordinary Indians are struggling hard to keep their life on track due to inflation and price hike. But since there are a lot of Indians ready to service American front & rear, Indian Govt is making use of their specialized service to keep the Yanks happy…
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