JangBoGoProbably this is what awaits India also on all the big items procured from America and P-8I might become a prime example in the future when we try to integrate our own stuff or modifications.
Suspicious of stolen technology, U.S. suspends weapon exports to S.Korea
Following the war of nerves between South Korea and the United States over the unauthorized dismantling of “Tiger Eyes,” a sensor suite installed on the F-15K, in August and September, the controversy over stealing defense industry technology has recently been spreading to other weapons. The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) and others are officially playing down the importance of the issue, but there are signs the fallout may grow, with the United States suspending the export of strategic weaponry to South Korea.
U.S. suspicions that South Korea was stealing defense technology began with an incident involving the breaking of seals around the F-15K’s “Tiger Eyes” sensor suite. Installed under the fuselage of the F-15K, these sensors help to accurately bomb targets even at night and in poor weather.
In August, the United States sent an investigation team led by a deputy undersecretary of state to South Korea, where they pressed Air Force officials – then in the middle of the Ulchi Freedom Guardian exercise – about whether they had taken apart the Tiger Eyes without authorization. The Air Force responded that the seals on the Tiger Eyes had been damaged when they were installed on the aircraft. In September, a joint South Korea-U.S. investigation team was formed, but DAPA recently explained that the team’s investigation was unable to find signs that the part had been disassembled. According to a source, however, South Korea demanded the United States produce evidence that they had illicitly examined the device, but the U.S. did not, saying that to do so could reveal an informant.
JangBoGocross posting from Navy news from around the world thread….
Incorrect. Only 8 have been ordered as yet. 4 more have been cleared and will be ordered sometime next year.
Another 12 are only rumored to be planned for (as per the above article). I hope they do order more once IN gets sufficient operational experience with the type.
Thats fine. But thats is why i said it with a caution and put this >>> But an order for 24 have already been placed (or decided upon)
But the fact remains that P-8I is being ordered in haste. Even in the case of more important A-50EI we ordered just 3 initially, that too from reliable suppliers with past experience. And then we wasted time and now ordered another 3. We have more need for A-50s, air-refuellers for the IAF and in the case of Navy 2nd submarine line, primary surface combatants & the very important replenishment ships. But that is not given due priority and those being ordered and ordered in piecemeal. Consider that to this P-8I which is likely to use only the American weapons and will not be able to use the 260Km Uran-ME or the 220-300Km Klub or the 120-290Km Brahmos.
JangBoGothere really is no point keep speculating on this. When it comes out, you will see what it looks like. There is enough going on in the shipyards, that people shouldn’t have to fantasize about new magical systems.
btw, it looks like the 5th 054A from HD shipyard is on sea trials and the 6th one just got launched. The 7th 054A from HP sipyard is almost ready to be launched.
I was not speculating… I posted that 054B picture to have any more of the same CG and what is the fact about it. I couldn’t find any similar CG after searching so thought of asking if any of you guys have anymore of this version.
That picture is from FORCE magazine and found it interesting as it was a good evolution of the current 054A. So my question still remains.. anymore pictures of this model and what (if any) details of the Type-054Bor what ever version that is to succeed the 054A.
TIA
JangBoGoWonderful.:D
It’d actually be the ideal AEW platform for a medium-sized, ski-jump equipped carrier. Certainly better than the Ka-31s we have now.
The Vikramaditya and IAC-1 could carry 2 each instead of 5 Ka-31s. Same space, more capability(Assuming this comes with AESA radar and a mission control/datalink system for fighters).
From wiki, the height of V-22 at the tail fin is 5.5 meter. The AEW version is taller than the normal version. If the AEW variant is not within the 7m hanger height of INS Vikramaditya, it wouldn’t fit inside the hanger and would need to be based outside on the deck.
My personal view of naval AEW is that of the Ka-31 type with 360degree coverage. ….but not with the current setup. But that based on 4 panels – 2 panels attached on the side fuselage. One panel on the nose and then one at the aft fuselage so that 360 degree can be covered. Even if the panels on nose & aft fuselage is not there itz ok!
JangBoGoPosted by TR1 in RuN discussion, but is more relevent to IN discussion…
http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=13779
Russia Completes Testbed Trials of New Submarine Engine
Russia completes testbed trials of the crucially new engine for non-nuclear submarines – air-independent propulsion plant – and prepares to construct an experimental prototype, reports RIA Novosti referring to Director General of Sevmash shipyard and Rubin Design Bureau Andrei Diachkov.
Earlier on, a high-ranking representative of Russian Navy Main HQ told to RIA Novosti that Russia was about to build submarines powered by radically new propulsion plant. At present, all Russian non-nuclear subs use diesel engines. “Rubin design bureau actively works on an air-independent propulsion plant with electrochemical generator. We’ve almost completed testbed trials and plan to show the project to Indian delegation this December”, Diachkov said.
As for him, experts of Rubin bureau have proved that obtainment of hydrogen on board a sub was technically possible. “This would make possible to produce hydrogen on board a sub instead of storing it like Germans do”, said the Rubin’s director general.
Besides, he added that the prospective Russian air-independent propulsion plant would use standard diesel fuel and have no need of complicated servicing at base. “By the way, it has no motion parts, so acoustically is very advantageous”, emphasized Diachkov.
As for him, to implement such large-scale project as development of air-independent propulsion plant, a federal target program should be founded. “Soon Rubin would construct an experimental prototype, and that is very cost-consuming. Another solution is to work in cooperation with other companies”, noted Diachkov.
So the Amur-1650 being offered to Indian tender will be with this AIP spec.
JangBoGoI am quite interested in hearing your detailed valuation of Kilo class (preferably the 636). To be honest objective valuation is not available for submarine so I am looking for subjective one now from one who has experience with submarines. Comparison with the Western counterpart would also be nice. Thank you.
That is soo nice of you to request for a comparison. But I think a better request would have been to ask an Asssie to report & write an article on the experience of the Aussie submarine fleet. Still, if you are interested in the comparison, please do start a new thread for the said comparison and spare this Russian Navy thread.
gf0012-aust,
I hope you must be very eager to put forward your experience with Kilosand in case you are inclined to respond to the above request, please have it in a new thread. TIA.
JangBoGoNot that i’ve ever worked inside any submarine or so or if its anyway comparble but I work with district heating networks and heating/powerplants which features alot of pipelines often in very mazed and cramped enviroments. In case of emergy you are required to know what is what, which pipes are for steam, condensate, natural gas, hot water and so on and to know what you need to do and what effects what on the process. Ofcourse we are not on deep oceans but mistakes in our field may resutl equally leathall consequenses if you don’t know what you are doing in the time of emergy.
Now we do not colourcode our pipes. Its generally aknowlidged that if you work with such enviroment and are expected to operate/use the system, you need to know how the process works and what pipe is what. We call it professionalism. Like I said, I never worked in any subs (only visited one pr. 651 class) but I would expect that agross the globe those who work on subs should be proffesionals and should know what they are doing..
….then again there are nations which needs to put warningcodes to coffeecups that hot coffee might cause injuries when poured over oneself:rolleyes:
Good points….but the problem here is most of the western experts or those professional who have had access to Russian systems are hardy objective in their judgement and often pass on their biased view….or maye due to their lack of proper training (& exposure) with Russian systems. That is what has possibly happened here.
JangBoGoWhat Gollevainen said is absolutely spot on….moreover. We get to hear shuch stuff from western experts on Russian systems, who may have had acccess to the said systems but not the experience of a trained person to understand or react to such systems. After all months of training are for the same purpose of knowing what the system are meant for.
we have seen similar stuff from western experts with regards to the MiG-29s, T-72 etc. To give a brief description…..we have seen how the F-16 pilot(s) flyingin MiG-29s were not able to make use of its potential and passing off their usual judgement. W.r.t the T-72, we have seen how some western experts say about the operators hand getting tangled with the autoloder and chopping off etc. But anyone care to put figures of how many Indian tankmen have got their hands disabled by the T-72 autoloaders?
you can dismiss me as much as you like, but one of us has actually done this for a job and one us has actually worked with sub builders, one of us has actually had some involvement with a Kilo user.
Are you claiming that you have worked with Russian submarine builders?
And which kilo are you talking about? ….the only possible kilo (if I’m not wrong) that a westerner can posssibly get their hands on are the Romanian or Polish Kilos.
I havnt read rest of your post fully, but just nitpicking from the above quote.
But the problem as far as I have read (that is very little), regardless of your profession or your access, is that you have already shown your bias w.r.t Russian systems to other member in another forum and went to the extend of banning that member. So regardless of your professional capablity, you probably have a pre-concieved outlook and hence any judgement are likely to be dependent on that. And I mean no offense with my words. JMT.
JangBoGoThat is an interesting development….should have been in Indian Navy news and discussion as it will relate to the tender for 2nd line of submarines.
from the article.
Russia completes testbed trials of the crucially new engine for non-nuclear submarines – air-independent propulsion plant – and prepares to construct an experimental prototype, reports RIA Novosti referring to Director General of Sevmash shipyard and Rubin Design Bureau Andrei Diachkov.
Earlier on, a high-ranking representative of Russian Navy Main HQ told to RIA Novosti that Russia was about to build submarines powered by radically new propulsion plant. At present, all Russian non-nuclear subs use diesel engines. “Rubin design bureau actively works on an air-independent propulsion plant with electrochemical generator. We’ve almost completed testbed trials and plan to show the project to Indian delegation this December”, Diachkov said.
Is there any info on what the Vietnamese subs will be getting?…If I’m not wrong the entire submarine deal for the 6 x Kilo class sub for Vietnam is around $3.6billion where as the 6 x Kilo class is for just $1.8billion. So can they be the first of the Kilo class operators who could be using the AIP?
So if the Vietnamese Kilos are to be equipped with AIP, then it has to be a Kristal variant of “regular” AIP with onboard hydrogen, or its the new system that is mentioned here???
JangBoGohttp://www.fontanka.ru/2011/12/07/016/
Vietnam buys another pair of Geopard frigates from Russia. Anti-submarine weapons will be more emphasized on this pair.
Good news. Why are they not considering the Pr.11356?
Vietnam went about it cautiously ordering 2 units initially and then probably getting good feedback they now ordered 2 more. But I think they should have ordered more including license production considering their naval activity in the region.
Even India earlier ordered like what Vietnam is doing now with Gepard. Ordered 3 Krivaks earlier and then after so much of wastage of time ordered 3 more and then again after so much wastage of time and realising that local shipbuilding will not be able to produce in time the new fancy P17A/B/Cor whatever, they will order 3more. It escapes how the planners can be sooo stupid :dev2:
Consider that to the haste purchase of 24 P8I,
Indian Navy to induct 24 P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft
– 12 more will be ordered at a future date.
the first of the units will only arrive in 2013. But an order for 24 have already been placed (or decided upon) even without getting feedback of the first system in its operational area. Few guys are making good pocket out of these deals….
JangBoGoIs there anyone who know (if any) about any new electric motors being produced in Russia for naval use? I mean more powerful (& larger in diameter) than what is currently installed in pr.677?
JangBoGoAny more pictures of this Type-054B firgate? I couldn’t find similar pictures of this 054B with search. Or is it a different class – a destroyer?
This looks more meaner than the 054A in which the fore deck is filled with the MG & AD missile cells.
JangBoGofew questions regarding the stealth UAV & Iranian explosions that we came to hear about couple of times….
Can this UAV carry any meaningful load of ordnance?
What are the possibilities that the blasts at some Iranian installation like Nuclear and Missile facility was carried out from the air by these drones? And this was the first instance that Iranians finally managed to down one of them after relentless effort?
Any thoughts?
JangBoGoThanks. Interesting that they still intend to offer the Amur class for India’s submarine tender. I suppose in lieu of the failed Liana and Litiy systems they’ll try to sway the Indian Navy with their fuel cell-based AIP system. Being able to produce hydrogen from methanol would soothe the IN’s concern about hydrogen storage.
But something tells me this will go the way of the MMRCA again. The other prospective contenders(S80, Marlin and Type 214) are likely to have comparable(and already productionised) AIP systems plus superior sensors.
I think none of the submarines you mentioned was designed with VLS in mind. Even if they did, the almost cricular hulled S-80, Merlin are going to fully degrade their hydrodynamic profile with huge humps. Type 214 will probably look like being pregnant with bulges on its side (more so visible on the top).
Amur-1650 will probably be the only diesel-electric subs that will be able to integrate the VLS for Yakhont/Brahmos without much degradation to their hull. Kilos will not even need to have any hump (or maybe even negligible hump than Amur) considering they are pretty big at over 9m in Hull diameter.
JangBoGoTime to celebrate.
The childish belief of stealth snipper-like operations and the realibility of the UAV concept went down by a single shot…and that was even an EM shot.
And all that with no man killed, or prisioner drama, congratulations to the iranian forces
Bet the US forces forgot ECM cover for stealth operations again.
Good one….
The illusion of stealthy UCAVs being the next big thing in combat aviation is what has been blasted here by the Iranians. It is time for people to realise that Human ar$e are there to stay long on ejection seats and UCAVs won’t replace humans any time soon.
A good majority have moved away from the initial illusion created by the American propaganda of stealth being invincible and the there won’t be any manned fighter after the F-22….to a more logical conclusion that nothing is invincible. But there still is a minority who still have put their bet in stealth & stealthy UCAVs and they are surely going to get heart burns by this.
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