JangBoGoWrong.
Tks for the info.
So what according to you is taking the French so long to finish their AESA? Lack of finance for the radar is highly unlikely. By what time will be a fully operational radar be ready?
JangBoGoWho told you that the IAF is looking for “value for money”?
IAF will not touch the Mig 35 with a barge pole , let alone shortlist it.
Then kindly explain what IAF is looking for….. an overpriced plastered aircraft that is inferior to the a/c it replaced as a fighter?
JangBoGoI’ve read the report in question on these forums, but it was ultimately an article by the Russian media, and having read several of these I believe in the ‘repaired/refurbish’ reports more. In any case I consider the information from the shipyard performing the refit(from the above video) to be as accurate as that of the boiler design bureau, and have no reason to doubt it.
So are you saying that you still believe the boilers are not new?
here is an article that I got from searching this forum
Press release dated 17 June 2004
FSUE Northern Machine Building Enterprise (Severodvinsk) placed an order with Baltiysky Zavod JSC for production of 9 main boilers. The boilers are intended for the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov which modernisation is carried out by the Northern Machine Building Enterprise.
In accordance with the contract terms Baltiysky Zavod is to produce a modernised version of boilers type KVG-3. Such boilers run on diesel oil instead of mazut. Detail design of KVG-3 boilers will be upgraded by Special Boiler Fabrication Design Office JSC (SBFDO). Pilot model will be manufactured in May 2005 and bench tested at SBFDO’s premises. The pilot model will be used for training of the Indian crew.
Headers, steam valves, etc. will be manufactured at Baltiysky Zavod. Production of valves will be started in July this year. Pipes and some elements will be manufactured from corrosion-resistant steel. This material is used at manufacture of nuclear-power engineering equipment.
Baltiysky Zavod intends to complete all works in April 2006. The first two boilers will be delivered to the customer in August 2005.
Baltiysky Zavod produces different types of boilers for ships under construction at its own shipyard as well as for other shipyards and thermal power plants. During the last few years Baltiysky Zavod produced 10 marine boilers and 14 boiler sets (they include main boiler, exhaust-gas boiler and separator) for stationary power plants.
REFERENCE
KVG-3 boilers (high-pressure gas-turbine boilers) belong to the last generation of marine power plant equipment.
And here is another one from the Baltiysky Zavod website
http://www.bz.ru/en/news*3,27.html
The press release 15 May 2006 года,
Baltiysky Zavod produced boilers for the Indian aircraft carrierBaltiysky Zavod JSC fulfilled one of the largest machinebuilding contracts – a series of main marine boilers. These items were produced for the Indian aircraft carrier «Vikramaditya» (former «Admiral Gorshkov»).
«A contract for the production of nine marine boilers Baltiysky Zavod JSC has concluded with FSUE «North Machinebuilding Plant» in June 2004. The contract price amounts to approximate USD 20 mio.», – said Oleg Kostikov, Director of Economy of Baltiysky Zavod. «During 2006 our company will gain about USD 22 mio in connection with the machinebuilding contracts. Prediction for 2007 – no less than USD 25 mio», – added Oleg Kostikov.
The first boiler for the Indian aircraft carrier was manufactured in May 2005. It is assembled on the test bench and is used as a simulator. The crew has an opportunity to get practical training as regards repairs and maintenance. Later the boiler will be sent to India and subsequently installed in the crew training facility. The rest eight boilers will be installed on board the warship, which is modernized by FSUE «North Machinebuilding Plant», Severodvinsk.
Baltiysky Zavod has modernized boilers type КVG-3 – КVG-ЗD. Now they operate on diesel fuel instead of black oil. Owing to this modernization power plant performance increased. Boiler piping is produced from special corrosion-resistant steel, providing durability of equipment.
On the customer’s request Baltiysky Zavod used environmentally friendly asbestosfree insulation in the manufacture of marine boilers. A new insulation (mineral fiber) is ecologically harmless material.
Reference
Today Baltiysky Zavod JSC is under a Joint Industrial Corporation umbrella. It is a leader in the North-West Region of Russia in production of marine and power equipment.
Machinebuilding shops of Baltiysky Zavod manufacture a wide range of machinery: propellers and propeller shafts, marine and industrial pipeline fittings, exhaust-gas boilers, steam separators, marine boilers, boiler units, stern tubes, steering gears, heat exchangers, etc.
Main customers of Baltiysky Zavod JSC are the leading domestic and foreign companies.
To the list of news
I think the wording like these —– (Baltiysky Zavod has modernized boilers type КVG-3 – КVG-ЗD) ….are what confusing people as many think the boilers are upgraded. But what it really means is an UPGRADED VARIANT/NEW VARIANT.
I doubt the crews of the Kiev carriers and the Kuznetsov were any worse trained than the Indian one. The fact is the boiler design itself is problematic. Problems will still arise, even if crews are trained to handle them.
How many industrial boiler accidents have you heard of in India? Almost every single industry have got Boilers but mostly working on heavy oil.
And your source is…? I’ve been following Rusnavy for quite a while now and they’re fairly accurate on such matters.
my dear friend, the article from RusNavy is not their own article….they are reproducing the articles that they get from the media. In this case they got that $85million design data report from the Indian media, who always have that unnamed Naval officer reporting to them.
I rather doubt it’d be possible to buy SSBNs, even if the Russian Navy was willing to sell them, and in any case the Deltas are old vessels that will be retired in this decade and replaced by the Borei class.
If IN had wanted they could have went for the retired Delta-III or the Delta-IV. Anyway an upgrade would have lasted for 10 years and would definetely have given more underwater stripe load than the Akulas. JMT.
I’m putting it to rest now as Akula will be entering service soon… already
JangBoGoSK-5000 type MHC called Swallow class in SK navy service. Derives from Italian Lerici class minehunters, but not built under license from Intermarine Spa. The Lerici class also served as basis for the USN Osprey class (which may help explain how the design got to SK). Six entered South Korean service 1987-94. The ships are smaller and less capable than the other Lerici-based designs. See also here
Thanks buddy. You are walking pedia. 😎
JangBoGoADA designers insist that Tejas Mk2 will belie all sceptics
link to article on Business Standard
Ajai Shukla got a little confused. What PS Subramanyam was saying is that the Tejas Mk1 has been tested upto 85% of its full flight envelope with the rest 15% to be completed by Dec 2012 when it reaches FOC. Its not like it’ll be at 85% of its full capability throughout and that the Mk2 will achieve the rest 15%.
Yes, agree. LCA in its current version need to cover the rest of the envelop in its tests. The author of that article was clue-less and maybe even missed to properly understand the stuff he copied.
But then a question does arise, wil the current F404 engine be able to bring the a/c to its limits?
JangBoGoIAF’s issues with Russian after-sales support continues even now. I think that this effectively seals the fate of the MiG-35 and may even mar the chances of the Mi-28NE and Mi-26T.
rest of the article on the link.
the article looks nothing more than a final push for the American aircrafts from American magazines. But below quote from the article is very important and tells the options that is open for the IAF with respect to the older Russian aircrafts…
Now the IAF is turning to vendors in Europe, Israel and the U.S. to respond to an urgent spares call for Russian-built equipment it has in inventory.
IAF will loose the above options once and for all if US aircrafts is purchased because parts & service can only be sourced from the US. And spares supply interruptions can occur due to “technical issues” and Indians will have to lick American a ss to get the “technical issues” resolved. But considering that now there are many Indians (including those promoting American wares in India) willing to do that service, it may or maynot become an issue. 😉
JangBoGoSeems like many are having great hopes on the Rafales?
Rafale
Probably the least capable a/c in terms of future upgrade due to its confined airframe. Not to mention the nose cone that reminds me of the rats. Does any of the guys really think Rafale will ever be able to compete against the competitors in the radar department?
Moreover, Rafale is probably the most underpowered aircraft (after F-18E/F) of the contestants and it was probably the reason why during Aero India 2011 display they was performing as if NO TOMORROW. But it was also the best performance of the Rafale I ever witnessed. 😎
French a/c to be cheaper than the Swedish would be a big wet dream. Even an upgrade of the old M2K is now hanging @ $2billion and more, even without any new engines, if I’m not wrong.
Note: Rafale came to trials with a PESA radar, rite?
F-18E/F
The only a/c in the contest that is inferior to the aircraft that it replaced/replacing, as a fighter. :p And probably the 2nd underpowered aircraft after Rafale?
Moreover E/F more so looks like a “plastered’ a/c rather than a new. It also had to be plastered with the Soviet 60s era wing fence to rectify its design shortcoming. When I hear of the wing fence, IAFs very own Su-22, MiG-21 come to mind… 😀
But it have some of the finest avionics suite and also came with an operational AESA for the trials, only other a/c that came to test with an AESA radar was MiG-35.
Any a/c other than a MiG-35 or Gripen winning this MMRCA contest will mean someone got something behind the closed doors! Because these two a/c represent the most Value-For-Money and it will depend on IAF if they want twin or single engined a/c.
JangBoGoSo, the big news is that they can now turn on the lights aboard, and that they can tie her up to an out-of-the-way pier so she is not in the way while everybody takes a 2 (or 12) month vacation.
If anyone in the forum would have thought what any totally clue-less person would have thought about the entire process of electrification of a ship/carrier and the mooring trials. You cleared their doubts! 😉
JangBoGoA follow-on CdG was priced at just under 2 billion euros in 2003 (1.83-1.99 billion depending on equipment fit). Not astronomic by any standard, though unaffordable for the French budget at the time.
What was the price of the 1st CDG when it was completed?
It is little difficult to believe that French will be able to built a 2nd unit at a lesser cost than the 1st unit. If that was clearly the case we would have been seeing the 2nd of the CDG in operation now. But that have not happened and they are now desperately on for a collaboration with the Brits with PA2. Am i wrong?
JangBoGoWell. Let’s try to break it down.
4 Pr.955 and 3 Pr.885.
3 Pr.677 and 6 Pr.636M.
10 Pr.22350 & Pr.11356 and 10 Pr.22380&22385.
10 Pr.21632.
2 Pr.11711, 10 Pr.21820.
2 Pr.18280, 2 Pr.21300.
4 Pr.12700.
Unspecified amount of ships and craft for Border@Coast Guard, couple of fleet tankers.
That’s about it.
let me put some figures from my info….
Pr.955 (8 units)
They plan to built atleast 8 units by 2020.
Pr.885 (10 units)
Article have already showed that 10 units are to be built by 2010. So it would be better to take that figure.
http://rian.ru/defense_safety/20110318/355149542.html
Pr.677 Lada (4 units)
If I’m not wrong ther are/was a total of 4 units planned with one currently undergoing trials. I can’t remember the names but I did read 4 names…
Pr.06363 Kilo (12 units)
As I suspected, this is going to be the next series built SSK and I’m expecting atleast 12 to be built considering the report of 20 SSK by 2020. The initial 3 units could be just the opening batch.
Pr.11356 (3-6 units)
Only 3 units now, but expecting a further 3 units may not be way out of thinking.
Pr.20380/82/85 (20 units)
When the project started it was mentioned that 20 units will be build. So lets take that they will adhere to the original plan of 20 units.
Pr.11711 (2 units)
Only 2 units now, but can expect more in the future. It would have been good if the Russians scrapped the French Mistrals and use that money to updated version of their earlier design.
Rest of the stuff I’m not sure…. But the above figure alone (if absolutely spot-on) now totals —- 59 units
JangBoGo20 SSK for the Russian Navy by 2011-2020
http://rian.ru/defense_safety/20110406/361564218.html
So most would be Kilo 636 and few would be Lada ?
yess, and I’ve to say… I told it earlier as well. Lada even after its successful completion of sea trails may not become the next series built SSK for the Russian Navy who is so used to operating larger double-hulled Kilos. And I consider the new 06363 as a completely new development of the Kilos. The hull is entirely different from the 636 kilo and as far as I’m considered the plates don’t lie. in 2-3 years we’ll see if I was right or wrong. The icing on the cake would be when the 06363 get all the new systems that has been tested on the ladas. it may/or maynot happen in the first units, but definitely in the succeeding units.
Below are what I think we might see by 2020. If not 4 Ladas then the number of 06363 will be more.
Pr.677 Lada (4 units)
If I’m not wrong ther are/was a total of 4 units planned with one currently undergoing trials. I can’t remember the names but I did read 4 names…
Pr.06363 Kilo (12 units)
As I suspected, this is going to be the next series built SSK and I’m expecting atleast 12 to be built considering the report of 20 SSK by 2020. The initial 3 units could be just the opening batch.
JangBoGoMy dear JangBoGo, believe me when I say I’ve read up extensively on the Vikramaditya from both English and Russian sources over the past 5 years. I have read the article you quoted and am aware that there is a discrepancy between ‘new’ and ‘repaired’ boilers in various articles. That said the majority of them only state ‘repaired/refurbished/remanufactured’ and even this relatively recent video from Sevmash states that the Gorshkov’s boilers were removed and ‘sent for repair’ to the boiler factory.
http://www.sevmash.ru/eng/video?task=viewvideo&video_id=3
Conclusion: They were more likely refurbished/remanufactured than brand new.
my advise would be not to trust anything regarding the equipment of Russian origin on projects like these from the open media (particularly Indian media) other than the original manufacturers. The reason is that unlike the Western enterprises, Russia info are far more laborious to find and hence what most 3rd rate reporters do is copy from other sources who in the first place would have created it out of their imagination or gossips.
In the case of boilers, there was reports dating back over years from the manufacturer of the KVG that 9 new boilers have been built and that 8 would be installed in the carrier and one would be meant for training purpose. Let me see if I can get that link…
In any case, the fact remains that the KVG boiler designs have always had a problematic service life over the decades, and despite the modifications made to the Vikramaditya’s some problems are likely to remain.
my dear. a boiler design as such is cleared only after meeting the safety parameters and in cases like these they keep good factor of safety. A boiler as such is not a deadly bomb as much as a grenade in your pocket is not deadly if it is carried properly! Hope you are understanding my point. It is the way in which we use it that makes it deadly.
There are certain operating and maintenance procedures that are to be carried out and it for these very specific demands that training are imparted to the operating crew. So as to create a “discipline”. In every operation a specific discipline is to be observed, failing which anything can go wrong. That is the 1st and foremost reason for Training – Create DISCIPLINE or in other words the specific operating procedures!
As for the information about the cost of technical documentation, read this.
…probably it may be my fault because I searched for $80million as you earlier said. I did come across that specific article…but since it is not from Sevmash I won’t regard it as a 100% trustworthy due to the reason I mentioned above.
If the figure quoted in the article is from any parliamentary document from question hour or ant RTI data, then I would believe those specific figures. To me it looks like someone did some basic maths on the basic of Cavour design ($30+million?) data for IAC and came out with those figure.
The Indian Navy wanted an SSN, not an SSBN, and for some reason decided to go for the quietest Russian nuclear submarine model(besides the Graney). My opinion is they would have been better served buying the three incomplete Oscar-II SSGNs at Sevmash, especially the Belgorod.
Deltas with their silo humps removed are a very clean sub. What i said wasa to replace those 16 x silos with smaller silo for the Brahmos/Klub/or even missiles and we would be able to carry larger number of them.
Even Russian navy is thinking of building a common submarine for BM & CM, though I’m not clear if they intend to carry both in the same sub silos or just make the same hull with one specifically meant as SSGN (without those hump).
JangBoGohttp://onepamop.livejournal.com/814441.html#cutid1
http://onepamop.livejournal.com/814120.html#cutid1http://twower.livejournal.com/521824.html
Moe excellent photos of the mighty North Fleet. Brb changing pants.
Thanks dear for those links. Absolutely great pictures.
IL-38 have a real tight bank… loved it…
http://gallery.greedykidz.net/get/988381/2011_sevflot_compressed_ed_DSC_8358.jpg?g2_serialNumber=1
also this one…cute little fellow. A “house” is incomplete without these guys.:D
http://gallery.greedykidz.net/get/988539/2011_sevflot_compressed_ed_DSC_9016.jpg?g2_serialNumber=1
JangBoGoNice to see IN finally getting new minehunters, but the figure of $670million for 8 mine hunters looks rather heavy. Nearly $85million per unit? 😮
While the Contract Negotiation Committee [CNC] still has to conclude a final agreement on the price with the vendor, it is expected to be in the region of USD 670 million [INR 3000 Crore].
Are they ocean going mine hunters or just inshore mine hunters?
JangBoGoAll SSBNs (except 955), as well as Oscar, are dual shaft.
Sorry, I entirely forgot about those for few moments. Thanks for the reminder. 🙂
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