XN923To put some numbers on his comments, the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment carried out formal performance tests on both a P40D (Allison) and P40F (Packard Merlin). For the F they recorded a Service Ceiling of 34,300 ft and a FTH of 20,400 ft (354 mph). The performance of the F, in terms of max speed anyway, is somewhat better (by about 20mph) than the similarly powered Hurricane II, which is not bad for an aircraft carrying 60% more internal fuel.
Though the Hurricane II was much more heavily armed – four Hispano 20mm cannon against six .50 cals. An 8-gun armed Hurricane IIc prototype actually did 348mph at 20,000ft, barely different to the similarly engined P40.
It’s also worth stating at this point that a lot of work had to be done on the P47 before it became an effective escort fighter. The early razorback versions suffered very heavy losses after they started flying over occupied territories.
XN923I disagree about ‘War of the Worlds’.
I have always wanted to see this film made according to the book, ie: late 19th century Britain, and I gather that the script was originally written as this, however Speilberg decided that it wouldn’t appeal to American audiences and therefore changed it.
I heard that Jeff Lynne was going to finance a film true to the book but I haven’t heard anymore about it, imagine, CGI tripods v Royal Artillery 18 pounders, wow.
Never mind that – the most exciting sequence in the book is the one they always miss out of the films – i.e. the evacuation scene off the Harwich coast (chapter is called ‘The Thunder-Child’ and the action briefly hops to the narrator’s brother). Seeing a Royal Navy Monitor ramming a tripod as it comes under fire from numerous heat rays on the big screen would be superlative… (Isn’t this scene on the poster for the Jeff Lynn version now I mention it?)
XN923Mk V: Griffon VII,VII or 37, extended span wings, larger fin and rudder. (30 built, remainder cancelled, possibly on grounds of extreme ugliness).
NiallC
LOL! If that were the case, no Bara would have ever left the drawing board!
Photo JACQUES TREMPE COLLECTION
No. 1959. Fairey Barracuda Mk.V (PM940) Royal Navy
Aeroplane Photo Supply (APS) Photo No. 4565
XN923Excellent point – and one that can possibly be taken a little further. Op Requirement F.18/37 to which the Tornado/Typhoon (and unsuccesfull twins from Westland and Supermarine) were tendered was issued in Feb 38. The Hurricane with stressed metal-skinned wings did not fly until April 39, so, at the time of preliminary design of the Typhoon, not only was it only Camms second monoplane design, but he had no in-flight experience of stressed metal wing construction to lean on. Even more good reason for a little conservatism.
NiallC
Good point… moreover, nobody at that time had experience of fitting cannon in wings, let alone four of them (or 12 MGs come to that)… so a strong, deep wing section would have made a lot of sense.
XN923I’ve perused the web a bit looking for information on this aircraft,but information seems to be quite sparse online.
Is there a book that deals with all things Barracuda?
How did the Mk.II differ from the Mk.I(aside from the engine)?
I’m also looking for Barra color schemes (especially those involved in the Tirpitz attack)Dennis
I’d have to check my sources but off the top of my head I think the Barra II had an upgraded Merlin. Colour schemes for the Tirpitz attack would have been standard wartime Fleet Air Arm temperate colours of extra dark sea grey/dark slate grey camoflage on the upper surfaces and sky under surfaces with low demarcation line.
I think there may have been an article on the Barracuda in a recent magazine, I’ll have a look for it.
XN923I’m fairly confident I read somewhere the Typhoon wing was thick to give high lift. With it being a much heavier fighter than anything Hawker had done before, and aerodynamics being less advanced than now, it seemed to make sense.
When I used to sail National 12 dinghies there was a lot of work going on around thick rudders which it was claimed could work effectively without stalling when operating at high angles of attack – this was broadly true at high speeds but the thick rudders stalled more at low speeds. Not sure what that says but there you go. I do remember reading that the Typhoon wing would ‘let go’ of the air quite rapidly if speed wasn’t maintained on landing approach although the wing produced a lot of lift above the stalling speed.
The problem with the Typhoon wing was at high altitudes where it lost performance and manouvrability, whereas at low altitude the Tiffie could hold its own with any contemporary fighter. I don’t know enough of aerodynamics to suggest why this might be. As far as I am aware this was only apparent once the aircraft had actually flown, so there would seem to be little to suggest that Camm wanted to design a thinner wing from the outset – after all, its forbear the Hurricane had quite a thick wing too.
The cannon fit is an issue when going much thinner though – I believe Hispano had to design a thinner cannon specifically to fit the Tempest wing.
XN923[QUOTE=’lectra]I may be wrong but I don’t remember the Buchons in the movie having the 109E style ‘struts’ under the tail. The air to air shots on that page are as I remember them in the film (no struts) yet the Buchon with the yellow spinner seems to have them..
Just an observation, but I wonder if anyone can explain why ?
Also while I’m posting on the subject does anyone have a link to any pictures of the two seat Buchon that I believe was used in the filming ?
Bruce[/QUOTE]
I heard an anecdote some time ago about the Buchons being modified for the film which involved them being brought as close as possible to 109E standard, basically adding the struts and clipping the wings. Apparently the Spanish pilot who test flew the modded example was enthusiastic about the changes, saying he preferred the feel of the aircraft that way and wondered why the Hispano version had not incorporated those differences from the start. The struts were definitely mentioned… Does this accord with anyone else’s recollection?
XN923BigVern1966, I was with you right up until you suggested George Lucas to direct. Nonononononononononono – he has not directed anything good since the 70s. Perhaps as a producer…
XN923Radial engines don’t have radiators, they’re air-cooled. Do they have oil-coolers?
I tried Googling yesterday, with no success, trying to find out something I may have read – or made up, about the odd-looking Merlin installation on the Mustang.
IIRC, the Merlin power-egg was developed at Hucknall. If you’re experimenting with fitting a Merlin to a strange airframe, it would make sense to use what you’ve already got for test purposes. If it works, work out how to do it properly later…
I’d have to check on this, but the Centaurus as fitted to the Tempest II and Sea Fury used an oil cooling trick pinched from the Fw190A, i.e. an electrically driven fan in front of the engine cooling an annular oil cooler in the front of the cowling. However, both these aircraft and others using this powerplant, e.g. Blackburn Firebrand, also had a wing root intake. Another oil cooler perhaps?
The ‘power egg’ installation makes sense – the nose of that Mustang does look suspiciously similar to that of the Miles M20 which used a similar arrangement.
XN923Thanks for enlightening me, Mr Mackay. You made
many valid points there.Regarding the Typhoon, it was mentioned not to propose
it as an escort fighter, but to give an example of the high
drag caused by a bulky nose and the increased speed
obtained by streamlining it.There was actually a photo of a prototype I did not know
about (not an improved late development as the
Tempest) powered by the Napier Sabre, with the
radiator placed experimentally in or under the wings like
the Spitfire, I think, which I saw in a very old multi-volume
encyclopedia of combat aircraft in the local library here
some time ago. The book mentioned it reaching 450 mph,
but did not give reasons why this design was not put into
production.I could be wrong, it could be this P5219 Vulture-powered
Tornado with a ventral radiator in this link. Its nose was
very similar. There seem to be only four prototypes
mentioned on the net. I’ll go to the library again sometime
to have a look.http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/typhoon.html
.
I think Sydney Camm wanted to put the radiator in the wing root from the very beginning, but there was a suspicion that this would be vulnerable (not sure to what – gunfire perhaps, but also maybe plumbing issues). He also designed a version of the Tempest (the Mk1 I think) with this layout, and of course the radial engined versions all had the radiator in the wing root as did the Sea Fury.
When Fairey were looking at ways to improve the performance of the Firefly they came upon this method, which improved speed by 30-40mph. Yet for some reason the powers that be remained wedded to the chin radiator for some time to come.
XN923What’s the point of the chin radiator when the ventral intake has been retained?
I heard recently that the success of the P51 owed more to the well designed ventral rad than the laminar flow wing.
This looks like they’ve just grafted a P40 nose on!
XN923stratos 4 has it’s good bit’s, like well modeled tsr2’s [on the out side], i’m not sure how the real test pilots would have liked the seating though [motor cycle style],and i’m not sure how the tsr2 would have handled at over 100,000 feet.
also when were tsr2’s truck takeoff with jato and normal landing
paul
Might be an interesting subject for someone to model for the ‘Sci Fi’ category at the IPMS Worlds…
XN923Blimey.
Was everyone OK? There seem to be a few people lying on the deck even after the incident has concluded.
Mind you I couldn’t help but smile at the guy who obviously catches on to what’s going on and starts pelting up the flight deck – then realises the world hasn’t ended and turns round to sprint the other way!
Looks like 145 lost its tail as well, and another aircraft got a damaged rudder. Scary stuff.
XN923Aviation related:
Swordfish
A history of the Taranto raid, the events leading up to it and the aftermath
Catch 22
One of the best 20th century novels, period
Non aviation related:
Use of Weapons
By Iain M. Banks – fantastic read, exciting and intellectually stimulating, though you may need a strong stomach
XN923Malcolm’s 2 cents seem to make sense.
Experience throughout the war suggests that a good escort fighter needed:
a) long range – to go as far as possible with the bombers and protect them, natch
b) altitude – to hover above the bombers to see any potential attacks and to use the advantage of height to attack the attackers
c) firepower – same as any fighter. Along with range you would need a fairly good store of ammunition – no point having 1000s of miles of range and only fifteen seconds worth of fighting
d) speed, manouevrability – good enough to compete with the interceptors you will be dealing with
e) ability to take punishment and still get home
Until 1941, the emphasis in the UK was on interceptors, compounded by the fact that previous thinking on escort fighters which was, in one sense, completely flawed leading to a whole path of aircraft design that led up a dead end (I’m talking about the idea of turreted fighters that would keep station around the bombers and form a defensive ‘box’). This meant we had no dedicated escort fighters available until the P51, really. I struggle to think what we had available that was better than what was managed with, i.e. Spitfires and Hurricanes with drop tanks.
What about the range of the Defiant? The mooted single seat version of that might have made an interesting choice. Or even a re-engined, re-armed Blackburn Skua, an aircraft with superb ‘loiter time’ and reasonable performance apart from low speed which could be boosted with, say, a Bristol Hercules. But we’re talking early in the war, by 1942, and without development, these aircraft would have been massacred.
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