No guys (jon/lawrence) You just dont seem to get my point. 🙁

Sure there is poverty and missery in russia (as there is in every single nation) As well as big armies and big spending on weapons in expense of welfare (like it is in every where there is military budgets)
And we can argue into end of the days of this crucial moral contradiction that every country has……….BUT ……. Is this the thread for it? Or any other Russian related military thread?
By your logic I should come to every single F-22, Aleirg burke, M-1A2, Stryker related thread and begun to monger about every usuall ill-spot and misshap of US and its govrnment…But I wont do it.

SO I suggest that if you (Jon) want to express your points, start a new thread for it, and leave us who are intressed about Russian military atleast one thread were we can discuss, analyze and maturely argue over the matters that are RELEVANT to the actual topic itself.

I think Jon Jones is actually making a highly valid point about defence spending in Russia. If you are one of these fan boys who thinks that Russia should match the US in terms of defence spending then so be it but the economic factor is a vitally important one.

Nope, im no fanboy (exept for APU fitted towed 52 cal 155mm gun-howitzers:p ) Im just trying to express my fustration that we cannot have single decent discussion over Russian military without certain fanboys that uses all possible change they get to mock, bash, demonize or otherwise undermind the topic. Russian military still exist and finally we begun to see Russia to rise or atleast showing will to rise, and that brings intresting times to the military factor, but I think its sad and also infuriating that people dont let us discuss it in adult manner. Critics and challenging twist from People like you Lawrence, who at least knows something about military I can take and accept but baseless flaming and trolling about people who have little knowlidge or even enthustiasm towards the military issues…. 😡 😡

Well said Sealord, however bringing truth and facts into an a discussion about Russia is painfull to many who’d rather forget about those inconsequential little things called humans who suffered miserably under the ‘Reds’ as some term them. Edit: i’m no fanboy of anyone either, just someone who remembers history.

Ok, let me ask you a question Jon James. How many russians do you know personally and how many times have you visited in Russia and in wich part of it and in what social level? If you want to play this game and take some sort of truth speaker gape into your shoulders, I want to see from wich experience you speak. Otherwise I want to express you, that I find your attitude very offensive towards Russian people.

only a fraction of those 30+ are going to be Mig-29s. Take a look at Kutznetsov, how many su-33s do you think it carries during deployments?

Back in the days I counted that with all the deckpark taken under service, total of 32 MiG-29 would indeed be carried. That tough ment that no helicopters at all and that isen’t realistic. But dropping the planenumbers you can add helicopters depending how much you want them. But the main bulk of the Vikramanditya aircrew will be MiG-29Ks, becouse there isen’t no other planes to take over the aircrew other than Ka-28 and Ka-31.

Russians have bit different philosofy. Back in the soviet days they were used to fit all the planes to the hangar due the harsh waters of northern atlantic. This meant that the flight crew was as big as the hangar allowed. In Kuznetsov the small aircrew is partially due this factor couped with the unwise move to use only the bigger Su-33 which takes alot of space and the fact that there isen’t enough of the planes in the first place.

Finland, as well as eastern block countries shouldnt be counted in this, as the preferance of western desing after long use of eastern one is purely sentimental and political choice. Only reason why we almoust made our defence forces to go bancrupty over the Hornet deal was becouse the air force officers wanted american toys that they had never had change to play with.;)

SAAB 900s, Learned to drive in Her.

Same thing. I took over my sisters 89′ Saab 900 as she didn’t use it and drove it untill the clutch broke down:( After that I hade another Saab 900 few years older (84 model) and occasionally used this 88 model 900 which was lying around with my folks. Somehow I still miss them…

The sole car that I have actually bought and owned as a car not in the means of transportation is my current 1986 Merzedez benz 190. Its bit contradicting car. It have the windshield whipers engine going for its last days and the gearbox have been repaired once but one of the racks is unsycronised so it crumples when changed from 3 to 2 gear. Also its front is lowered which yeas looks nice and cool but in the northern hemisphere and in the periferia where I live is real pain in the ass. The fiberclass armour that is fitted to the bottom is taking severe damages with icy flosh lying around the streets and roads. And I wont even go for the fuel consumption…
….but othervice that its one hell of a drive and I still get the vibes that I got when I first sat on its wheels.

Ok Soviet never-wheres part II:

Cruisers

(in uploading order)

1. Project 63 nuclear strikecruiser
2. Another versions of the same project
3. Pr. 81 nuclear Air defence cruiser
4. Pr. 1126 nuclear airdefence cruiser, analogue to Moskva class
5. Sverldov missile conversions
6. Pr. 1165 nuclear strikecruiser, pre-1144
7. Pr. 1239 nuclear cruiser
8. pr. 11990 Anchar nuclear escort
9. alternative version of the previous ship
10. early/alternative proposal for pr. 1144

Best way of dealing nonsense claims is to ignore them, becouse what trolls seek is retaliation and they fest in the fiersome figths that usually follows when someone comes to tell them that they are wrong. Too many good threads in this forum has been ruined…