It is very, very simple therefore to draw the conclusion that the number and type of guns in circulation in a country, legally or otherwise, is of absolutely no (as in zero, nada) consequence to the rate of crimes commited with guns in that country. I’m sorry but I dont think I can explain it any clearer than that?!.

Well Im not saying that taking away guns will take away crimes, am I? The proplem is that the crime rates have gradually grown in all western world, and banning of guns migth not lead into desired consequences becouse other elements creating crimes are rabidly exploiding out of control. Thats why I feel rather dull to take so called “proximate” way to counter my argument basing on the immidiaete effect and hectic today world enverioment. My agenda has been from start a long term plan, that effects would come fruition, only when the existing gun-base is worn out.

The UK situation doesent present a case where you want to ban arms under the goal to whipe out guns out of the world of existence completely. My plan is lot more dramatic than the one in done in UK

Ahh the mortal cry of the staunch Marxist. ‘You cant use the Soviet Union’s inequities against us as they were’nt true Marxists’. The understanding being that in their personal utopian ideal it would all just miraculously work. I wonder if an expanded capacity for self-delusion is essential for any remaining Marxists out there or its just coincidence that most seem to have it!.

The irony is that, in your denigration of the Soviet model, you provide yet another illustration of the circumstances where the presence of an armed citizenry would have prevented tyrannicism and the rise of a precession of despots.

Well I dont need to believe in miracles.
All I need to do is to go out in the streets of Finland and see it myself. The nordic welfare state is mostly product of Marxist social-democratics, and thougth it isent perfect in terms of socialism, its presents the ideas of Marxism lot better than any totalitaritan attempt.

And funny how you mention the gun owning citicens as case against the revolution, becouse it was largerly exactly that the “white guards” in both Russian and in Finland ignited, civil with considerable ammount of guns…..
….And then what happened? They felt that freedom and liberty is best presented by mass-slaughters of the unarmed working class….

And that Is the basic thing why I feel any claims of armed citicens to defend freedom a disgusting and pervert idea.

You do not need to look at ot from other angles. It is very simple, despite the handgun ban, the number of illegal hadguns CONTINUES to rise as does gun crime in general. Thus the ban has failed as handguns are still available and certainly not difficult to get hold of.

So then the root of all would be this: Are the total ammount of guns in UK rise after the ban, or just the ammount of illegal ones? Thats is what you havent answered yet, and remains the reason I keep pointing this out.

You should examine the history of Marxism more closely – a set of dogmas responsible for the deaths – many of them caused by guns in the hands of Party/State agents – of tens of millions of people, far more than were murdered by the Third Reich. My need or desire to own whatever weapon I like should be no-one’s business but mine

I have studied Marxism for almoust seven years now, thank you I dont need to take look of it any deeper. Perhaps you should take instead, before accusating ideology out of crimes of individual opportunist seeking Marxism as a rubber stamp to boost their own hegemonies. All Soviet Union misshaps were effects of basic idea of tyranny and despotism, something against Marx orginally begun to fougth for.

So pardon me, But I found it disgusting to use typical anti-communist rant as a stepping stone for Nazi sympatism. If you want to wave the bourgerous flag, then fine, but please, do not speak nazis out of same sentence…:mad:

It’s a “tool of killing” for those who choose to make it so, such as the armies, secret police etc, of Marxist states of the 20thC, from Albania to the USSR. For others it’s a sporting weapon. For others still it’s a potential means of self defence that might not ever be used, or at least not used to shoot anyone.

9 mm pistol nor semi automatic submachine gun isent sporting weapon. Remember, You are speaking to a semi professional sportshooter in here. If you desire to target shooting, there are other equipment for that, so un-ergonomical that all sort of “Rambo” acts would be pure torture to conduct with them.

BUT:

I’m not American, I’m English – alas, my nation has no “passion to arms” any more…

Why Are we then fighting any more? My target is US gun laws, not UK, that has taken wise step in its gun laws….

Capitalism is the pragmatic reflection of the human condition and, in fact, most of the natural world. I want to do better than my fellow man so that my survival is assured over his, if need be. As Arthur C Clarke wrote ‘Marxism (communism) is absolutely the best form of governance….for insects and robots’. Read Orwell and his concept of ‘first amongst equals’ if you think Marxism has any benefit left to offer mankind.

Thats just utter BS. Humans are by nature social animals that care for others, thats the main reason why we have things like morale and ethics. The owner class mantra that we are greed and want to take advantage of others to compensate our individual succes is just a social phenemenon that borns in the mind of the ones that have the capacity to it. Now the the current leader-class just want the comon folk to think that they are also greed to justify their own power.

And I have read trough Orwell thank you, Perhaps you should take a tour in Sweden-Finland axis to learn out how well Marixst theories can create secure and peacefull society when the most important factors of it gets fruition….

The point about why one ‘needs to own military weapons’ is fatuous and irrelevent. Is a .22 Ruger target pistol a ‘military weapon’ – answer: no – yet that weapon was banned under the legislation passed in the UK post Dunblane. The problem with these bans is that they start off the slippery slope effect. In the UK it started off with automatic weapons bans etc which sounded reasonable, then hunting rifles, then handguns…each time nibbling away freedoms on the pretext of the ‘reasonable’ question ‘why do you need x type of guns’. The answer should always come back ‘why do you think we cannot be trusted with them’ but somehow that never happens.

Well I have talked about the division of weapons into military and non military, only to twist the iron in some US gunmaniacs morale consistence. I have asked the how noble it actually is to own weapons to desinged solely for killing other humans, and laughingly waited what sort of excuses I migth hear….somehow everyones try to avoid that question:rolleyes:

But If we are to ban weapons, we need to ban them all, not making definition which can stay and which cannot, otherwise the whole point would be flawed

This sounds like a failure of the government of the day to maintain law and order more than anything else. It also begs the question of how, if guns were readily available, your ‘working class’ didnt get guns themselves and defend themselves if their government were unwilling or unable to act on their behalf. In fact, if Finnish governmental authority has proven so weak in the past its a wonder that Finnish citizens are not MORE keen on the right to bear arms to prevent it ever happening again

.

After your families and friends have ended up in uncharted graves, You migth want to start thinking the opportunity of NO guns, instead of more guns….

The finnish rigth-wingers got out of their guns from basicly same ideology that exisit in US, and what has been descirped in this thread by noble word-twists. The government didnt act on the working class behalf, becouse the rigthwing formed the government and relyed on their power to their militia, wich was rosen to legal status!! The guns allowed their tyrannia and keeping the working class decades under fear, and only democratic and juristical actions to disarm those militias enabled freedom to everyone in here….

If ones freedom depends on the ammount of gun-power that he has, it is not freedom, but mere breathing space in enverioment of tyrania.

Who is using the American experience to cover the whole human race?. We’re using it to cover the western democracy’s and contrasting the US with the UK.

But Im mostly talking about the situation in US, and how US should open its eyes and stop believing in its own BS that guns are the source of its democracy and freedom. Lot more examples exist where the values and ideals are the same, but guns havent have any part to play in it.

Would you go to Somalia, the Congo, Nigeria, Haiti or any of those places and tell the public that they can throw away their guns if only they could all just be nice to each other?. If you ever do plan to do that Gollevainen please let me know in advance, being a good little capitalist, I’ll sell tickets

Well I’ll be calling for those tickets then:D

well during WWII our tiny fleet tied the whole migthy Soviet fleet to its anchorns in Kronstad simply by making the whole norhtern Baltics a one huge minefield. And add to that the German mines, no wonder that there are still huge ammount of them left, despite our valiant and harsh post-war campaing to sweep them all of…

But I remember seeing in some Balkan forum time a go a bigger Croatian Minesweeper desing (line drawing) that seemed to be like 300-400 tonns…is there any details of that class?
And has there been talks of dedicated minelayers for Croatian navy? looking from the map, the Dalmatian coastlines almoust cries for one for any navy operating there…

Aha – this revelation of our Finnish friend’s starting point ought to end the discussion – pure Marxism, the belief that the ills of society stem from capitalism rather than from the nature of humanity… However:

Capitalism is a conduct of the ills of the human, and socialism is need to whipe it off….despite what you like to say that I have low opinion of people, I (as a marxist) believe in the goodnes of people and that is the main reason why I cannot understand why anyone needs to own military weapons decided to kill people.

You can make up all sort of morale and noble excuses over freedom and ect.. that you have the rigth to onw guns, but it doesent make the gun any less a tool of killing. And people who buys these guns knows this….Or if they dont, they better start thinking of it:mad:

But we have – during the birth of modern democracy in the 18th & 19th centuries, ordinary people became more free to own weapons – which formerly were often suppressed by pre-democratic monarchical states. It’s only in recent years that our “democratic” rulers have started to emulate the autocratic ways of their royal predecessors…

This is just you repeating your own goverment propaganda made to support your nations weird passion to arms. Like wise here in Finland, the ammount of (military) guns in civil people begun to rise after the Independence and the owners of the guns imposed a semi-totalitaritan rigthwing state that used armed ‘death-squad’ type civil militia to terror and indimiate the working class…only when the democracy returned after the WWII and these rigthwing militias were banned and their guns were confisicated.

Well, you do seem to admit to Marxist leanings, so no-one should be surprised if you go right over the edge and say b***ger freedom & liberty, who cares about such antiquated stuff anyway… really, I despair when I see stuff like this. Did our forbears really struggle and suffer for centuries just for someone to chuck away the resulting liberty so casually?

Well, you stuck your self on 18th century dogma and Im atleast on 19th century so save the “antiqued” at leas a moment.:D 😀 My forefathers focused more on struggeling for social equality and peace and liberty rising from the principle that no one is left on is own….rather than focusing individual stubbournes.
You have to remember, that the US…wich is a mere fraction of the world nations, is the sole one beliveing to this “rigth to be armed to the teath” ideology, You cannot generalise your own national oddity to cover the whole human race at one…

And to Sealord:

Step-1: Gun ban introduced, legal handguns confiscated this creates an instant start point for the number of illegal handguns in the country.

The proplem between us two to understanding is that do you mean that after the ban some one started to ship more and more guns to britain, and as the guns were illegal, they ended up in statistics as illegal handguns (If it so, we need to then look if it from other angles as well. You have to remember that criminal need for hand guns doesent rise from the fact that civils suddenly looses those. How are the criminal rates in britain devolped …eq lets say five years before the ban and five years after? Are you sure you are keeping your claim in its contest or just throwing it as piecemeal without thinking that much of its nucleous

or…

Step-2: This number increases, ie there are more illegal handguns after a number of years than there were following the completion of the ban and confiscation, thus the ban failed.

Are you just saying that after the guns are banned, there are more illegal hand guns where as the total ammount of hand guns in Britain has remained the same?

Yeas logically if you make guns illegal, the ammount of illegal guns naturally increases as all the guns become illegal….has this been behind your logic all the time, sea lord?

I was being sarcastic when I noted that the best way to eliminate gun crime was to fix poverty or fix human nature you know!.

well there is no need to be sarcastic as it is quite rigth that those are the ways that the proplems can be solved….And by fighting spirit of the opressed working class we can get there if we only want!!!:D

well in some level, a good warship needs to look hidious;)

Anyway, that helps a bit, how about the draugth? wery important factor of ship operating in restricted waters.

But I have to concratulate Kroatians for this ship, It was the first that came to my mind when I recovered from the shock that our own new MCM desing coused in me…looks and appears to be really suitable for Finnish requirment as well IMHO