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Beermat

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Viewing 15 posts - 2,356 through 2,370 (of 3,326 total)
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  • Beermat
    Participant

    I have been watching this with interest – I have something to add on the nature of belief and believers.

    This chap I know used to go out with a bunch of mates and create crop circles in a farmer’s field. He and his mates used to drink in the pub that was often visited by believers in alien causes for the circles, thirsty after a hard day’s tramping around cornfields with energy-field detectors and divining rods. They would listen in quiet amusement to their conversations.

    After a while this got boring, so they started owning up.. ‘Sorry to interrupt, but it was actually me and my mate John who made that one’… and they were accused by the visitors of making it up! So one day my acquaintance showed a group of American crop-circle-ologists a photo of him making a circle with a peg and a rope. One of them said ‘Yes, but that’s obviously staged’…

    People will get ‘locked in’ to belief, I guess.

    Beermat
    Participant

    To answer my question – This is interesting (to some, perhaps); http://aaac.larc.nasa.gov/tsab/cfdlarc/aiaa-dpw/Workshop3/AIAA.2005-4730.copyrighted.pdf

    Shows a fairing (FX-1) devised in 2006, according to the paper, to reduce the ‘included’ angle. This gave significant drag reduction.. but what that fairing is in fact doing is near-straightening the root (note the rear view, Fig.9). Not completely though. There was still a little bit of flow separation in the corner, so a fairing extending beyond the trailing edge (FX-3) then improved the situation a little further.. Talk about re-inventing the wheel.

    Edit – actually a touch unfair – that fairing is a ‘bulge’ intended to keep to flow lines. But I wonder whether they would be divergent in the first place if that line was properly straight. But surely it can’t be as simple as that.. can it? Graham?

    Beermat
    Participant

    🙂

    There was an earlier iteration of the WW design that showed 90 degree sides, so some other consideration does seem to have pushed that compromise. It might have been a reduction of the drag penalty you mentioned incurred transitioning from flat and parallel to curved and tapered. And that’s an interesting point about the area behind the wing. Are there any publicly available primary source references apart from NACA out there on all of this?

    in reply to: Found in a loft #888034
    Beermat
    Participant

    Just to check, where in Cambridge? Not possibly related to Marshall’s old field in Barnwell, or even the new one? A lot of thirties housing there – I live in one 🙂

    Beermat
    Participant

    Here’s the NACA report: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930081386.pdf

    Check out the photos of the wind tunnel model used, showing the junctions to be straight. The report concludes “The modification of a round fuselage to provide straight junctures appeared very effective aerodynamically. The resulting low-wing combibation possessed practically the same characteristics as the filleted condition”

    This is not the same as the thinking that gave the contemporary generation of designs their shape, and their fillets. that was my point – hopefully you will see it now too, Graham?

    Beermat
    Participant

    The older theory was that the angle was critical, so if you went less than 90 you hit interference problems. This was because low-wing, tubular fuselaged aircraft needed a fairing to ease the angle out that would otherwise exist. It was noted that the L-10 Electra didn’t need a fairing, and a generation of designs ( Hurricane, Defiant, Hellcat) went along with the idea that this was because the flat sides avoided an acute angle, and the angle was the point. They all ended up needing various sizes and forms of fairing anyway. The 1938 NACA paper in question refined this slightly but crucially in terms of what I was referring to, placing the emphasis on a straight join in plan form arrived at, in this case, by local alteration of section profile to give flat sides

    This subtlety was passed over generally until the very late forties. And consequently everything continued to need at least a little fairing, be it Mustang, Ta152 or even first-generation Sabre. However, if you look at the WW, there is NO fairing ( ignore the plastic kits), and a completely straight-in-plan longitudinal wing/fuselage junction aft of the mainspar.

    That is what I am talking about, not the general shape of a fuselage or the angle to the wing. And interestingly it’s in fact at an acute angle on the WW – 88 degrees – indicating that the designer knew it wasn’t so much about that angle as the root form.

    A modern low-wing airliner’s wing root has growths and bulges that make that join straighter in plan. Very conventional now to straighten that line. Not in 1938.

    Sorry I am probably not using the precise words an aerodynamicist such as yourself would. I hope you can stop laughing long enough to give me a chance, nevertheless. I have been looking at this in some depth.

    Beermat
    Participant

    No, I don’t mean 90 degrees to the wing. Not at all. Look at the Whirlwind – now look at the Pilatus P-3. See the slightly awkward looking transition aft of the wing root that they have in common? This is a result of the designer aiming for as straight as possible a junction between wing and fuselage when viewed in plan.

    This is done by locally making the fuselage flat sided, so there is no curve to interact with the aerofoil to make for a bent line. Hard to explain, but easy to understand if you look at a few examples. When done properly (on the WW the designer even corrected for the angle of the fuse side to the plane of the aerofoil by introducing the necessary fractional and imperceptible twist to keep that line straight) you don’t need a fairing of any kind. Not like the Defiant et al. This is the theory put forward in the tech note. I’ll dig out the links later.

    Beermat
    Participant

    So the next production design that I can find to have the locally flat section over the wing root, progressing back to a curved section aft of the trailing edge as a deliberate design feature, instead of any kind of fairing, was the F-86D.. a redesign of the earlier curved/faired F-86A fuselage. This puts the Whirlwind 10 years ahead of the thinking here. Interestingly, it might have been the 22 year old John Frost rather than Petter who did this. Certainly someone at Westland was keeping abreast of the absolute latest coming out of NACA in the US. The nacelles follow a theoretical shape described in a 1937 research note, while the report into the theoretical potential of locally flat sides (and straight junctions) rather than fairings on low wing designs appeared in early 38.

    Does anyone have any more on this, especially John Frost – beyond the wiki article?

    in reply to: Flying Legends 2015 web site #891063
    Beermat
    Participant

    🙂 It was a bit picky of me!

    Wish I was going this year.

    in reply to: Flying Legends 2015 web site #891271
    Beermat
    Participant

    I’ve said I’m sorry. So shoot me.

    in reply to: Flying Legends 2015 web site #892033
    Beermat
    Participant

    Yeah, I was being pedantic. That was an interesting link Tony. I also wonder whether it’s to do with English being increasingly a non-native business/internet language – we’re getting a form of ‘pidgin’. One for ‘General Discussion’ maybe – apologies again. Re the line-up.. the increasing pre-war representation really appeals. Unfortunately I won’t be there, I’ll be showing new bits of Whirlwind at the Westland 100th anniversary bash. But I wish everyone who goes the best of weather.

    in reply to: Flying Legends 2015 web site #892224
    Beermat
    Participant

    Thanks

    Depressing that the website person uses the word ‘aircrafts’ in the URL.

    in reply to: who owns the IPR of the spitfire image? #893911
    Beermat
    Participant

    Out of interest, though, who owns the rights to images of the design? The business successors to Supermarine – is that BAe? I suspect that legally this would be a nonsense..

    in reply to: Seen On Ebay (2015) #895846
    Beermat
    Participant

    http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/121659819413?

    HUD from a Spitfire! Bargain price too.

    in reply to: General Discussion #264313
    Beermat
    Participant

    They are what in the diecast model world would be termed a ‘re-issue’; they have been built to massage the egos of half a dozen obscenely rich people, and will rankle with many in the historic car world for diminishing the standing of the original survivors, in much the same way that the new build/replica Spitfires do.

    Not commenting on the cars, but with aircraft it’s not so much the existence of replicas that don’t pretend to be anything else that annoys ‘Original Survivor’ owners, as far as I can tell. Instead, they get annoyed with the conversation they generate, because of the ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ factor. Once people start questioning the origins of actual metal a whole can of worms is opened that can only serve to keep the value of their asset down.

Viewing 15 posts - 2,356 through 2,370 (of 3,326 total)