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    [ATTACH=CONFIG]256081[/ATTACH]

    Beermat
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    [ATTACH=CONFIG]256080[/ATTACH]

    Beermat
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    Will do when I am in front of the right machine.

    Beermat
    Participant

    It’s the basis of the data in M&S, which I don’t have in front of me. That might be referenced?

    Beermat
    Participant

    It’s only circumstantial evidence, but according to ‘Reinventing the Propeller’, Jeremy Kinney, the trials with 54 Squadron in 1939 showed that their Spitfires with metal Rotols had, among other advantages, better ceiling than those with the DH. Does anyone have those documents?

    In the meantime, this shows an altitude effect (as well performance only on a par with the WW up to 16,000ft):
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]256059[/ATTACH]

    (A&AEE trials, Boscombe, from aircraftperformance.com)

    and here are some t/c ratios – only at 0.7 sadly – and their effect – note ‘compressibility loss’, though at what altitude / Mach number isn’t explained, making absolute values meaningless. I expect it represents loss under the conditions recorded in the row, ie max speed conditions – so only hints at the susceptibility of each blade design to compressibility, not the full effect towards the ceiling. http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit2prop-b.jpg. The WW was 9.6%, for comparison .Also note how speed / altitude around FTH is affected.

    Kinney also mentions that the reason the RAF had a lot of aircraft with inferior props when they wanted the Rotol units was simply availability. Makes the apparent instruction to Rotol to concentrate on wooden blades seem like a material supply thing, but that would only make sense if there really was no understanding of the importance of blade thickness at all, and they thought it was just something about the hub? Hard to credit, especially in the light of these results, but it’s looking increasingly possible.

    Beermat
    Participant

    Just to get it ‘out there’, my workings so far on that drawing number.

    For each ‘thousand series’ there are a number of ‘hundred series’ designs each six inches longer than the last. So a 54300 is 10ft 3in, a 54400 is 10ft 9in. A 55400 is 11ft 6 in, a 55700 is 13ft.

    Then when you ‘trim’ the design by an amount of inches shown by the last digit you get the real world prop. Thus Whirlwind 10ft with a 54409, Spitfire 10ft 9in with a 55409, Battle 12ft 6in with a 55706. Blenheim left-hander 54350, 10ft 3in.

    But what of twist? Well, if you give the same total twist to the blade you can then get whatever pitch distribution you want for your design by changing the basic diameter and ‘trimmed’ amount.

    The faster you want your aircraft’s optimum efficiency relative to rotational speed, the more you go down the ‘longer pattern with more trimmed off’ route, to get less twist. Hence WW 10’9 basic but with 9 inches off, Blenheim 10’3 basic but with nothing off. The Blenheim will have more twist, as appropriate to a slower aircraft with roughly the same rotational speed.

    Thickness/chord can also be standard for each drawing, and vary at any given station with choice of drawing and trimmed length. Note that the ‘oversize then trim’ technique for faster aircraft will tend towards thicker sections.

    This is a very tentative suggestion, based on what examples with known drawing numbers and diameters fit into mathematically, nothing else.

    But Rotol metal blade numbering remains a complete mystery. There must be someone out there who knows?

    Beermat
    Participant

    Ah, no, the Whirly’s is 54409. The first 4 is shank size – ‘4,000 series’. The Spit was 5,000 series, hence 55409.

    The first digit is type (5=metal controllable), and the third digit is drawing number within the series, fourth is rotation and fifth how many inches “removed’ from the ‘full length’ pattern blade of the drawing – or rather from the projected prop diameter described by it.

    Still working on whether the third digit indicates anything more than a sequential number.

    Beermat
    Participant

    The thing about blades is that if you want to turn them at a constant rpm in the face of compressibility your major variables affecting horsepower taken up by doing this become altitude (and thus speed of sound) and blade thickness. More of one inevitably means less of the other. How much less depends on the blade profile, and the RAF profile was demonstrably poor in this regard.

    Beermat
    Participant

    No slouch. Depends what you are comparing it to? Better than the DH version, however you look at it. The A&AEE had the Rotol version pegged at 31,000ft ceiling, the RAF could only manage 27,000 before RPM and thus pressures began fluctuating. The same engine, same boost. Constant (not increasing) speed, 3,000 rpm in both cases until puff ran out, maintained by a CSU that would then hit the stops.

    I completely disagree with the assertion that the DH props were of sufficiently thin section to cope. The work of John Stack and many experiments on that very aerofoil demonstrate that they were not thin enough along all of the outboard section (which is a known profile) to avoid compressibility drag rises really very early compared to, say, a Spitfire 55409B blade, just 2% thinner at 7.6%.

    Beermat
    Participant

    While I agree that all engines will run out of power at some height, the point we have hit upon us that the engine has to drive the props, and if for any reason one set of props drags more than another and increasingly so with altitude the engine will run out of power lower down.

    With the Whirlwind the production aircraft struggled to reach the altitude the tested prototype did. The only real difference was the props.

    It turns out the Spitfire had altitude related performance variations when the same aircraft was tested with different props as well.

    To put it another way, stick 9.6% thick RAF section blades on a Spitfire and it would suffer too.

    Or to put it yet another way, how good your prop is, how much extra power is absorbed by just turning it, determines when you ‘run out of power’

    in reply to: Another Amelia Theory of Disappearance #827612
    Beermat
    Participant

    I understand about line of sight and the virtual image. Everyone does. It does not need another diagram.

    You do not understand how refraction works. That is why your virtual image is much too large unless your ‘Electra’ is visible kilometres down.

    You have looked for some blobs that, if you squint, might be called aeroplane-shaped. Do that for long enough you will find them.

    When someone pointed out that the shape was too large you misinterpreted a piece of physics to explain that away. Your refusal to step back and learn the theory properly suggests that deep down you really do not want to. But I can’t psychoanalyse, I can only repeat. You have the geometry wrong.

    Refraction happens at the water surface. Incident light, ie any light not meeting the surface at 90 degrees, does not leave the interface at the same angle that it approached it from. This deflection defines the size of the virtual object. If the electra is 100 metres down, from 500 km vertically above the virtual object would be less than 5 cm larger than the 12 metre real one.

    Beermat
    Participant

    Yes. It appears lot of inconsistent performance data of the period might be explained in this way.

    in reply to: Rotol propeller for Spitfire 1 #827765
    Beermat
    Participant

    I would be interested in what you can come up with there.

    Ralph, did you notice the variation not just of speed with props in the Spit trials, but also in actual altitude of max speed with t/c, with the same engine and thus same full throttle height? Quite a big thing totally overlooked by the history of such things which only ever looks at engines and supercharging.

    Some very odd interpretations came out of the Spitfire II trials. It is frequently said that Rotol were told by the Ministry to concentrate on making wooden blades as a result, no idea where in the performance data that seemed to be the way forward? Especially when it was a metal – bladed Rotol that did the best, even better than the dh in terms of absolute speed. I wonder whether in fact they were told to concentrate on making wooden blades thinner.

    in reply to: Rotol propeller for Spitfire 1 #827875
    Beermat
    Participant

    Thanks

    Yes, I did have sight of it about four years ago, at the FAST library. Regarding metal blades, there are some curves that show the effect of reducing tip length on t/c at 0.75r, and from that it is possible to extrapolate a little of the t/c curve for a few production blades. I only took copies of one, the Whirlwind’s 54409.

    Did you reach any conclusions about blade drawing number allocation?

    in reply to: General Discussion #226314
    Beermat
    Participant

    ..and if we had proper progressive taxation, they would.

Viewing 15 posts - 481 through 495 (of 3,326 total)