No doubt you’ll be grinning all the way to the newsagent to pick up your copy of the Sun then, or tuning into an edition of The Matthew Kyle Show to see the sailors tell their tale with a caption superimposed along the lines of “My Islamic hell!” ?

Nope, sorry I can’t really see the funny side, not especially as they are being allowed to ‘cash in’ on a set of unfortunate circumstances that have been described by the powers that be as ‘carrying out their duties’ whilst referring to the sailors as ‘still on duty’.

I bet those four troops, blown up in Basra they day the sailors came home, would like to sell their stories too ? Unfortunately they never will and one questions the integrity of a Ministry of Defence that thinks it’s ok to reward it’s servicemen with tabloid and celebrity status ? ‘X-Factor’ culture rules OK !

I’m originally from Liverpool…I’m really going to buy The Sun aren’t I!. Dont know what the Matthew Kyle show is but I’ll hazard a guess at something like Parkinson?.

You cant see the funny side because you’re a civvy who doesnt understand the service ethos in the Royal Navy. Thats no accusation – just statement of simple fact. If you knew the institutional character involved you would react differently.

By taking this action the MoD may be hailed as acting distastefully, but, there will be large chunks of the Royal Navy that are extraordinarily amused that someones going to pay a bunch of matelots for their dits.

The line about the sickening loss of 4 personnel in Basra I find hard to understand in the context of the 15 Navy personnel writing stories?. Do you mean its somehow ‘not fair’ that the sailors can write their stories and the soldiers cant?.

To be honest Ren I find that an incredible statement if that is what you meant?. I would again advise you that you do not understand the services mindset if you do think that as there is no way that a matelot would expect a squaddie to pass up a daft amount of money telling an absolutely unrelated story to the press if the roles where reversed.

Ren,

I read that BBC piece you put up and know I should find it distasteful and disagreeable. I am sorry to say I cannot and I’m sorrier to admit that I’m even grinning as I type this.

There is something that is very fundamental to the service ethos about this. It, to an extent, is the same thing as when I saw one of the lads shaking hands with Ahmedinejad and giving him the ‘yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir’ routine.

I have to admit I was creased up laughing then because I could read the guys mind and I’ll tell you that, despite the danger, he was thinking ‘I’m giving a fresh load of bull to the the bloody Prime Minister of Iran and he’s lapping it up’. He nearly managed to suppress the grin as well….but not quite.

That guy is destined to be a mythological figure in the RN…especially if he manages to get a TV deal out of it.

The reason I cant condemn them is that being impertinet and ‘cheeky’ is traditional in the Navy. Discipline may be strictly upheld but, sometimes, the letter of the law and the spirit of the law can be widely differing things. This news is entirely in keeping with that spirit on the strength that they got a cr@p deal initially and here’s a way to get something back off it.

I’ll admit I know what Col. Bob is saying about wanting this to just fade away as a bad memory and you cant deny he has a point, but, the other comment about the ‘odd incentivisation’ is one of the strangest things I’ve ever read. Did the writer really believe that matelots would be trolling around Iranian waters trying to get picked up so they could sell a story later I wonder?

According to a very good source there are Harriers there but next Thursday might not be a good day to see them flying.

Nick,

Given that the Brahmos can fly at a variety of trajectories, and that the range is but a MTCR imposed limitation which can be overcome by local boffins (and there is already ample evidence to ascertain they have the capability to do so)- this is a semantic point.

So what are you saying here?. BrahMos can fly further than 300km with its high atltitude cruise profile or it can actually fly the whole profile 300km lo-lo after a little tweak from the ‘boffins’?. The former statement would offer no suprise – the latter would be astounding!.

What if I saturate it with supersonic missiles? Which are harder to engage?

What does ‘harder to engage’ mean though?. With saturation fire you tie the targets defensive potential down and present the defender with more targets than he can engage. Its matters little whether you use supersonics or subsonics. Its just, usually, medium subsonics are easier to employ in large numbers than big supersonics.

Hmm, what if I manage to get in a platform through your defended zone and launch a supersonic missile, which goes active at the last moment?

Then I was probably tracking your launch platform before release and I’ve had decoys out, EW ops alert and my fire control on threat bearing for the last minute!

For every move, there is a countermove. I found it interesting you quoted the Israeli engagement- which of course was a cockup by the Israelis, but hey- if that had been a supersonic missile…

No its not a case of move/countermove if your target is not alert. If you can ambush him when he’s not at action stations you just might get away without the need for saturation attack. With the Israeli thing it makes no difference if the missile was supersonic or subsonic….except that the Israeli boat would have been shredded by a BrahMos type weapon. It was sent home with its tail between its legs anyway so the difference seems marginal?.

What makes you think that the airframe body is not heavily treated to lower its signature?

Airframe treatment?. A thin layer of RAM does not turn a fifteen year old Russian missile design into a stealth weapon.

Also, the Mission planning system will take care to plot a Brahmos trajectory that mininimizes its signature vs detected sensors.

IF such a trajectory can be found.

Arent you assuming that the Brahmos is easy to detect, come what may? If I were you- I’d spend more time considering that given the repeated reference to stealthing and low signature, the missile designers may have worked something out viz this angle.

I’m saying that the high altitude range-profile puts it in the coverage of modern shipborne air search sets on a profile that is unmistakable – that is fact.

I’m saying that the weapon is physically big – compared to most subsonic skimmers – it is.

I’m saying that the design is not physically far removed from Yakhont which is a missile designed by the Russians to employ speed over stealth to penetrate shipboard defences – that is fact.

I’m saying that you are swallowing what you are reading from your countries defence establishment far, far too easily!.

Which again far outweighs the performance of a subsonic missile.

Are you really saying that the greater destructive potential of a supersonic outweighs the fact that it will be detected and tracked earlier?. Talk to some of your defence contacts about RF softkill!.

Your assumption is and was that Austin does not know this, and needs to be told this. Why? If he has to contest your assumption, he has to provide details. Kind of heads you win, tails he loses?

I make no assumptions of any kind. I do not know anything about Austin so I explain myself as clearly as possible to ensure he understands the point I am making. If he feels I am teaching him how to suck eggs I am quite sure he’ll tell me and I’ll apologise!.

Another assumption. We have repeated statements from the Indian side about how & why they went about selecting a partner, and finally chose Russia thanks to its experience with supersonic missiles. One’d rather take them at their word, rather than your guess, dont you think?

You mean you would rather assume that your country had a plan and that BrahMos wasnt a carrot dangled to get Indian money into the Russian economy?.

There is also the fact, that this is not the only LACM program being pursued by India, and other programs to field low cost, subsonic CMs are also in the works.

So you have pockets deep enough for all of these missile programmes yet are too poor for proper naval aviation, are hurting for competent littoral ASW and have dragged your heels on SSN’s for how long?. Nah…the IN is far and away more professional than that!. You can keep selling it all you like Nick but I am not buying that!.

Is overkill wrong?

Yes it is – when you have critical capability gaps in other areas that need addressing.

Lets see- the MOD can barely fund RN ships on active patrols and has to park them, but does it prevent the RN from hankering for the best technology for their ships? I think not.

Hankering for no of course not, but, if someone came along and said that we could have Yakhont for our ships if we wanted it I would expect the First Sea Lord to politely decline and request the funding be re-allocated to something we actually could use the resources on…like more choppers.

The Brahmos program was chosen for a reason- anyone familiar with modern AD systems would state that the need of the hour is to develop fast, low flying penetrators or extremely stealthy ones. The latter is more expensive, as compared to the former whose tech is already mature- the Indian side chose that approach, and it will apply to several programs.

The fast low flying penetrator is ten-fifteen years ago technology based on twenty years ago opfor threats. By itself it is not enough to reliably penetrate shipboard defences coming in to service now. using it as the basis for your antiship capability going forward is just dumb!

You are kidding right – or you havent heard of the Official Secrets act, a nice little bit we inherited from your guys and kept it even after you left. Rest assured the chances of the Russian side debating this is more likely..

I’ve signed the UK OSA. Am I not allowed to post on here?. I know ‘military secrets’!. Have I ever revealed anything I shouldnt have or gone into technical detail on any of the systems I know/knew?. No I havent. I would expect no less from any other professional or former professional on this board.

What you have basically stated is that the UK is going for the cheap, swarming solution- that may be inescapable. The rest, isnt. What I do know is that the adoption of the Brahmos by the IN really caused a diplomatic storm including some angry faces from several western diplomatic representatives, & a lot of folks who considered the IO region their pond. If things were as blase as you state they were, I doubt that feelings would be so visceral. I can well imagine the fun when the hypersonic program kicks off and delivers.

The UK going for cutting edge technology? Thats a giggle!. The UK are still trusting antiship to the SSN’s for big boats and Lynx/Skua to pot the missile boats. For us there is really no threat that, at present, justifies anything else.

The adoption of BrahMos kicked up a furore because the only target set it made any sense to be inducted against sailed under the stars and stripes as, and I know Pakistani’s that agree with this, you dont need BrahMos for a few ageing Type 21’s!.

Now I cannot imagine the US Navy are in any way scared of BrahMos as they’ve had a plan for that weapon for years and have more than enough systems to counter it. The fact that the IN was arming up to fight them is certainly something that I am not suprised they took note of though.

Jacko,

Three words: Light Blue Propaganda 😀

Even if you could find some low houred and serviceable SHars, the type was retired in part because it needed a huge and expensive upgrade to remain viable.

Not in the context of the of the operation outlined. The SHAR needed a bigger engine for hot n’ high ops. It had problems in Op Palliser off Sierra Leone, it would have problems in Afghanistan, but, it would have absolutely no problems in the South Atlantic that would require the engine upgrade/fuselage redesign.

Resurrecting the SHar is impractical and entirely undesirable.

Tell that to any Royal Navy Warfare Officer facing an air threat with nothing more capable than the GR9 with 9L/M’s on deck.

But that should not worry you. A CVS cannot carry sufficient SHars to provide meaningful CAP coverage if it carries any GR7/9s. To be able to defend itself, it needs to carry only SHar, making it a bit of a self-licking lollipop (fun, but of little practical benefit).

Now the answer to that is a bit more simple than you might expect. We have two CVS’s left operational. We would really be looking to send both….just as we sent two carriers down for Op Corporate. The Sea Dart removal refit increased the ability of a CVS to operate the stovies toys so you are probably looking at, if the aircraft and pilots could be found, two dark blue sqdns of fighters and two squadrons of Crab bombers. Possibly about 32 fixed wingers in all.

With the freedom to operate granted by Royal Navy BVR fighters backed by the ASaC7’s the GR’s should be able to precision clobber any significant hostile targets with impunity. We’d certainly not have to worry about steaming a ways off the island to keep out of the Exocet envelope again!.

Self-licking lollipop….dont think so!.

And a carrier requires AD destroyers, a guard SSN, oilers and RFAs – a massive and costly force to deploy a relatively tiny air power element.

…and if there is no airfield handy a vaunted airforces’ contribution last time was a singleton bomber supported by half that services entire tanker fleet and for marginal return on that expensive venture. ‘This time’ the aircraft that actually managed to mount that token effort isnt even in service, so, maybe a singleton Nimrod with a couple of heath-robinsoned Storm Shadows under the wings could be achieved next time?. How fearsome!.

In any case, in the case of the Falklands, there is already an air base on the islands – so reinforcing the garrison and its air defences by air is quicker/cheaper/simpler/safer than sending a carrier.

Precisely why that airbase would be the first thing hit by any aggressor and the first thing that would have to be destroyed by ‘our side’ if it looked like we were getting overrun as it could not be allowed to the enemy!.

Austin,

You may have your own good reason to disbelieve things , But I dont recollect when was the last time the IN went and proclaimed to the world that we have done this or that , I have never seen any footage of a Klub missile every fired from a IN Kilo or Talwar , Which ofcourse dosent mean that they have never done that.

Well you were the one who described the hyperbole surrounding BrahMos’s deployment?. You cant make the Indian Navy’s reticence to talk about any Klub missile proof that they have inducted the supersonic variant and have it operational and reliable. This is the whole point. The last information I saw about Klub 3M-54E was from a Russian source that said it didnt work very well. Nothing substantive has been released since then saying it works and has been fielded or has even past acceptance.

I’m NOT sticking my fingers in my ears and trying to make the scary missile system go away here, likewise I’m not really all that concerned about it as – like I said – UKPAAMS is in part designed to defeat it and its still an ARH and vulnerable to RF softkill anyway!. All I want from anyone is a confirmable, credible, report that the bloody thing works reliably as, if it does, its a very considerable engineering feat.

Why do you think that Brahmos cannot be sent towards its target in a passive approach , or fly low towards its target and then activate its seeker during its terminal phase , Does it always have to fly high and advertise it self ?

If BrahMos wants its touted stand-off advantage then it is obliged to go high. If not you’ve go to get your launch platform in to about 120km from target undetected to maintain the suprise. Possible, I guess, but not necessarily an easy feat.

Since its Ramjet propelled , its powered all the way to its target with a sustained High Mach Number during the entire course of its flight and even when its pulling high G , The dart being conventional solid booster would bleed energy much faster when its doing a High G manouvere to avoid defence

Since its a ramjet its taking its propulsion stage all the way through the terminal phase making it a nice big fat target. BrahMos is a low RCS target compared to what….a Flanker?. Compared to a small kill dart stage its a barn door!. BAE’s Sampson radar is credited with the ability to track a golf-ball RCS sized contact at 60km doing M3.0, so, how low-RCS is the clunking great BrahMos again?. In a decade that will be baseline performance from any number of AESA naval radars on the international market.

The key here is if both the system is detected during launch . the Brahmos has a far better chance of penetrating an enemy defence than the Klub.

No it does not I’m afraid Austin. The large supersonic missile, for antiship, is a dinosaur that you Indians have let out for a bit of a walkabout. You are looking now at modern Inner Layer Missile systems like SeaWolf, Aster, VL MICA, ESSM, Barak, god-knows how many Russian types, etc easily having the engagement envelope to catch supersonic skimmers 10,000 yards off.

Modern generation larger-calibre gun based antimissile capability like the 3P rounds for Bofors Mk3 guns and Contraves Millenium with AHEAD have the capability to throw up a time-on-target wall of flak 2,500 yards off the vessel.
OTO Melera are taking that the step further with guided DART rounds for their Davide weapon system. Once these kinds of defences are activated, getting through them is going to mean saturation fire, not individual missile performance. Supersonic just isnt worth the price unless its coupled to tactical suprise.

Jonesy , Why is there so much of disbelief ? Any reasons for such disbelief.

Indeed there are reasons. The one credible, independent, source I have managed to find to provide detail about the Indian purchase of Klub states that the version transferred is not 3M-54E – that is the SIPRI database. No credible Indian, Russian or independent source has refuted the information available in that database.

I clearly recall reading reports stretching back 6 years or so stating that the Russians were having problems with the seperation stage. There were reports of the negative aspects of the weapons development so were are the pictures from the successful trials launch of -54E?. Where are the pictures of the target barge struck by the supersonic kill dart?. Where is one, single, article stating that the weapon has undergone OpEval and has been cleared into service.

Come on Austin this is potentially one of the most capable and scary weapons on the planet. A weapon that truly circumvents 90+ percent of the naval worlds hardkill antimissile defences. Yet its not advertised, no operational pictures exist…only line drawings and mockups….yet its sat snugly in Talwars tubes?. Do you not find something odd about that?.

The supersonic dart thing *is* operational on Talwar , This was told by some one who is on Talwar . I certainly dont have any public proof on that one , But then I dont have public proof for many things out there which they tell you when you get up and personal when you meet them.

Who onboard Talwar stated that though Austin?. Have you ever been aboard an operational ship?. In the RN only really the Ops lads and the Weapon Engineering branch would know much about the capabilities of the ships weapons down to any kind of detail. You could go aboard any Duke class boat and ask if they had Block 1 or 2 Seawolf missiles aboard and, I’d bet, 60% wouldnt have a clue – simply because its not their job to know!. To ask someone about a distinction as subtle as whether they had 3M-54E or 3M-54E1 in the pipes, and getting a reliable answer, means more than grabbing someone in uniform at an open day!.

NHQ told the Russians to get back to them in 6 months with something concrete or the writing was on the wall on the system to go with , The Russian came with their proposal within that time with a tested sub variant of Klub, wihich impressed the IN not only because the Russian delivered it on time , But because its potential was much beyond its claimed anti-ship capability.

The only known, tested, antiship Klub version is the 54E1 variant – the same one SIPRI says the IN bought. Why are you so sure that the IN has got 54E?.

Through all this I am NOT, repeat, NOT stating that 3M-54E couldn’t be in service. Certainly the Royal Navy and US Navy are both taking the weapon very seriously indeed – part of the Type45’s brief is the ability to track and destroy the kill-dart stage at 60km plus.

What I am saying is that without a single shred of evidence that the missile is operational (other than the word of one Indian sailor off Talwar who may/may not know what he was talking about) its a bit premature to run round shouting and screaming about it!.