JonesyYep that may be so…but what a price they , and all the PBI ,are paying for The American version of democracy, a version of democracy which doesnt really stand up to much scrutiny.
A horrific one to be sure. They started paying in the aftermath of Desert Storm though years before IRAQI FREEDOM. The point is Hurrifan they were already going to pay a price under Hussein that was every bit as high, going forwards, just without any hope of it getting any better at all.
JonesyOf course. A change brings new opportunities. Hardly to judge in which directon.. The main problem is that this change was forced from outside. I feel that Iraqis will show tendences to choose anything that is as far from America’s interests as possible.. Even if that mans voting Al Sadr or the likes. If this happens, then God save Iraq.
Again I agree with what you’re saying. It is my opinion though that a step-change has already occured to allow the Iraqi’s to make the choice to oppose what the US represents in their country.
For a countries populace, oppressed for so long into impotency, to feel confident to state their political wishes safe in the knowledge that the US or UK forces aren’t going to come along and drag them off, never to be seen again, is actually an immense step forward. Whether that step forward is actually in a direction away from the US is not really relevent and, I suspect, solely of interest to the current incumbent of the White House.
The fact is that the Iraqi populace has now seen that ‘better way’ of having the kind of freedom of speech that most of us take for granted and its naturally going to be increasingly difficult to ‘put the genie back in the bottle’ from now forward. In short the Iraqi populace may, in the near term go for the reactionary Al Sadr types, just as the German populace went for Hitler in a big way in 1933, but they will invariably learn a lesson from all this and be better able to deal with their own issues in the future.
JonesyAmen.
Perhaps it is naieve, but, I think the Iraqi people have a better chance now, without Hussein, to grow and develop than they had.
The next decade would be hard for them either way, but, the difference is that in 10 years, without Hussein, they might arrive at a system of government with a genuine popular mandate. With Hussein it would’ve been more mass graves, malnutrition and fancy palaces.
JonesyOne thing you are still doing here Garry is turning a blind eye to the fact that Saddam Hussein was given opportunity after opportunity to get out of the spotlight and go back to happily gassing the Kurds.
UNSCOM, UNMOVIC and however many happy little bands that trooped through Iraq came back stating that the were not getting full co-operation on the promises made after the Desert Storm surrender. At the eleventh hour Hussein could have turned around and told the Mukhabarat ‘minders’ to back off the survey teams and let them go wherever they wished. He wouldnt so he took the consequences.
I wont argue that Bush wanted to go after him regardless – he plainly did. I dont think (as you’ll no doubt remember) that trying to take that much oil out of his hands was necessarily a bad idea but thats irrelevent. What is the point was that Hussein had it within his power to remove the justifications that saw US/UK forces invade his country.
Ha… and which wars was he responsible for? Iran and Kuwaite? Iran was expensive but roundly supported in the west as a good thing. Kuwaite was only a mistake when the west kicked his forces out of there, otherwise it increased the wealth of Iraq for very little overall cost. If anything it was the west that was the problem overall, approving his stupid costly war with Iran and disapproving his short relatively bloodless war with kuwaite.
Again Garry you are being very selective with your observations here. Were the west courting Iraq and Hussein because they liked him, his views and his actions. Nope he was convenient as a foil against Iran just like Stalin was a convenient foil against Hitler. Churchill’s views of Stalin were manifest and poor – didnt stop us sending 5000 tanks and 7000 aircraft to Murmansk to back him up though!
Iran post-revolution was a big blow to the cause of the ‘Western’ powers as it took away a big and potentially powerful ally right in the Soviet Unions back yard. In the context of the Cold War making moves to attempt to re-establish that kind of ally seems eminently sensible?.
JonesyEADS to equip German Navy vessels in Lebanon with the latest identification systems
EADS Defence & Security Systems (DS) will equip German naval vessels off the Lebanon’s coast with identification systems, which will help to avoid confrontations with unknown aircraft. The so-called IFF systems (IFF = Identification Friend or Foe) work on the basis of state-of-the-art digital and encryption technology in line with the latest Mode S identification process, which is intended to prevent critical situations through fast recognition of aircraft, as was the case with the ferry flights by the Israeli Air Force last year.
As the company announced on Friday, EADS Defence Electronics, the Avionics and Electronics House within DS, will deliver five MSSR 2000 I identification systems, which will be installed on the F123 frigate “Schleswig-Holstein” and on the high-speed S 143a patrol boats, in their home ports of Wilhelmshaven and Warnemünde, as well as in the operational area in Limassol/Cyprus. The vessels have the task of monitoring Lebanon’s coast and airspace as part of the UNIFIL UN peace mission in order to prevent arms smuggling. The systems were produced and fitted in the record time of approx. two months and in time for the beginning of operations in February.
“On account of the increasing complexity of combat situations and scenarios, both on the ground and in the air, identification is today an existential matter during all military operations,” explained Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defence Electronics. “Only fast and reliable identification of one’s own and friendly forces can ensure that dangerous or even fatal incidents can be prevented.”
The identification systems, so-called MSSR 2000 I secondary radars, provide an overview of the air situation based on queries, that are in part transmitted in encrypted form, and automatic replies from the aircraft. This supplements the information previously supplied by primary radars and in this way improves monitoring of crisis regions. As a result accidental attacks on one’s own forces can be avoided.
Now this is a very interesting report, many thanks BTW to Tango for taking the time to update this thread in such diligent fashion, it seems strange that the German Navy are taking the standpoint that they have to go to such lengths to identify their vessels in support of this action.
For my money a Notice to Mariners of German operations within a patrol area bounded by specifc co-ords should be sufficient to push the burden of identification back on the, allegedly much-vaunted, Israeli air force!.
Damn sporting of the Germans to do the Israeli’s work for them!
JonesyUp until the USN’s SeaWolf came about, and after the early problems with Spearfish were resolved, the Trafalgar Class boats were considered a good match for anything anyone else could put to sea.
The RN SMCC or ‘Perisher’ was also known as the toughest way to get a submarine command in the world. Unlike the USN, for example, only Warfare Officers could advance to submarine command through the Perisher.
What that meant is that we had, arguably, the worlds best submarine commanders in boats that had parity with the best of the rest at least.
Since the SeaWolf class didnt get a foothold the Virginia’s seem to have taken the mantle of quietest (therefore ‘best’) SSN and the boast of it radiating the ‘same noise at 20knts as a Los Angeles does alongside’ is an oft-spoken one.
The truth of that will probably not be known for a good while yet. Likewise the noise levels of our new Astute class boats and the general comparison with a Virginia will be unquantifiable to any precise standard for years in the UNCLAS world. Suffice it to say our boats are more comparable to US standards than French, Russian or Chinese.
JonesyYou still did not grasp what you have done by removing him, right? Forces that have been kept in bottles for decades now have been unleashed.. forces that are far more alienated to Western world than Saddam ever could be.
Saddam was under circumstances by far the best of all evils. Iraq is absolutely not ripe for democracy, not today, not tomorrow, not in 10 years from now, unless you keep Shi’a, Sunni and Kurds in three separate states (which will immediately start a war with each other, anyway). Trying to force a democratic rule to today’s Iraq is like forcing a 10-year old girl to pass master exams in rocket science.
Saddam had brutal methods, yes.. but these were the best prevention against the rise of religious extremism. Do you think that Pahlavi’s methods to keep mullahs under control in Iran were that much softer? You don’t realize that besides innocent civilians many of the arrested in Iraq due to political reasons were persons you would lock at Gitmo at first opportunity, too. The stupid and thoughtless invasion of the US returned Iraq politically into middle age, Iraq won’t be as secular as it was under Saddam even in 100 years from now on.
There is a golden rule in foreign policy that says that replacing a well-known predictable evil by a new unpredictable one is a blatant mistake. In case of Iraq a fatal one. If Hussein seemed evil for you, just wait for Al Sadr or other mullah, buddy. I can promise you that he will be FAR worse.
But it is too late now. I can see where it is going. The new US government will win on Iraqi card, then silently pull the troops out, distract public attention to someplace else and leave Iraq to its destiny, full of abandoned and depressed people without future, slowly turning the state into a new fortress of islamic extremism. The world says thanks for f*cking it up completely, that is exactly what we needed.. :rolleyes:
Note: to any potential bashers, don’t even try to make a flame war out of this or play on antiamerican card again because I will not respond to you anyway..
Flex,
I dont think my politics are anywhere near yours but, I have to say it, this is one of the most erudite and genuinely interesting posts I’ve ever seen on this topic. I think there is much truth in what you say about the Iraqi’s being faced with a new reality and being unprepared to come to terms with it.
What I do not agree with are the conclusions you draw from the analysis. From talking to friends who’ve served in Basra I can tell you that the situation on the ground there has been so distant from media reports to qualify much of the BBC/Sky News reporting from Southern Iraq as pure fiction.
The relationship between British forces and the local populace was constructive and, mostly, quite affable up until about 18 months ago when they started getting fed up with the slow pace of improvement and impatient that they were not seeing their lives getting markedly better. The attitude on the street now, apparently, is that they want us gone, or at least going, and they’ll sort things out themselves.
Not being funny or impertinent but that was precisely the point we wanted them to get to by themselves. Like anyone who stays in your home too long – no matter how welcomed initially (and we very much were welcomed into Basra by the greater proportion of the locals at the outset) there comes a point when that welcome can be overstayed. Thats fine by us and we’ll wish them well.
They have, together, expressed a wish for us to go…..this is not a region “full of abandoned and depressed people without future, slowly turning the state into a new fortress of islamic extremism”. This is a region where the people feel that they can address their problems their own way. Precisely what they wanted to do against Saddam Hussein but were incapable of going up against the Mukhabarat and the domination of Saddams Sunni minority rule.
Could it result in a Shi’ite Muslim political framework locally – yes of course it could. Provided they dont turn into the Taleban I dont see why that is necessarily a problem?.
There is a golden rule in foreign policy that says that replacing a well-known predictable evil by a new unpredictable one is a blatant mistake. In case of Iraq a fatal one. If Hussein seemed evil for you, just wait for Al Sadr or other mullah, buddy. I can promise you that he will be FAR worse.
The point is that the ‘predictable evil’ wasnt necessarily that predictable, his health was also failing and the prospect of one of his sons taking over scary to contemplate given their track records!. What has been done here and now, with hideous cost, is to give the Iraqi people an opportunity to make what they will of their own governance. Something, as seen in Basra, they are not incapable of.
Has the cost been too high for what has been achieved?. That will be answered by those with their own political agenda’s now and by political historians in two decades when we see what the Iraq of 2027 is like – if its a Helmand basket-case wasteland or a Taleban-haven then we have one conclusion, but, if its a productive and functional state that doesnt offer its citizens detention centres, punishment-rapings and mass-graves then we have an altogether different conclusion. I’d rather wait and see how the Iraqi’s do before condemning the whole thing as a failure!.
Its strange that, in 1991, when Hussein was weakend by Desert Storm the Shi’a rose up to depose him and regime change their own country. In one of the true crimes in recent Iraqi history the coalition stood by and let that fail. had that uprising succeeded and resulted in a populist Shi’ite led Government in Iraq it would have been hailed as a great success. Now though, with IRAQI FREEDOM being the next point at which Saddam’s power and grip on the country was diminished and actually broken the same populist Shi’ite Government will be seen as an unmitigated distaster!. Funny that isnt it!.
JonesySounds like that could be the Achilles Heel of the F-22 Raptor.
Its so good, so superior to its contempories that its pilots can easily get complacent, make silly mistakes, and get themselves blown out of the sky!. Interesting and definitely one more strand in support of the UCAV in the manned/unmanned debate!
JonesyPhil,
Jonesy I know you have some issues with the crabs but I reckon you should cut them a little slack once in a while, we need them as much as we need the Army, the Navy and the Marines.
….but I was being nice this time!. I was informing friend Phantom and the others that they need not fear for the Reds disappearing from living memory and that the RAF were in fact good custodians of this most flashy of military capabilities!.
DEEJ pointed out, with insurmountable eloquence, that the whole issue was media spin and that the RAF were utterly blameless of putting forward any impression of tight funds at Comprehensive Spending Review time. After all the last thing the Blair Govt would take notice of would be 38 thousand people ‘bigging up’ the RAF lets face it! :rolleyes:
:diablo:
JonesyYou’ll be glad to hear then that the RAF Air display Team has, at no time, been under threat.
The RAF has prioritised the Red Arrows over operational capabilties in the past and will, I expect, do so again in the future. This is because there is no better recruitment tool in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and they are fully aware of the fact!.
The circa 38,000 people who have signed the petition have just, unwittingly, been roped in to a de-facto publicity campaign for the RAF.:cool:
JonesyYou thought right Si!. Pic of the C-2 dropping off the end of the deck particularly appealing.
Nice job.
JonesyEuropean,
I think it fair to say that the gap will close between the MN and the RN by default. They have different priorities and, dare I say it, a much easier deployment schedule than us.
Will they ever surpass the RN as the premier Naval service in Europe. Cant see it really. Navies are designed to doctrine and French Naval doctrine is far less ambitious than the UK’s. The French fleet has numbers but look at the composition of the fleet….how many hulls are Aviso’s and Floreal constabulary corvettes.
Compare French amphibious capability to that of the UK….sure they have some nice ships but its basically a pair of new LPD’s and a pair of LSD’s. Against that we can put Ocean, two Albions and 4 Bays and thats before we add in the sealift Ro-Ro’s.
Compare French UNREP capacity to the RFA. Again the Durances are excellent ships, but, compared to a Fort or Wave class?.
French SSN’s….well the Barracuda’s are a while off and the current boats dont have that great a reputation. Nothing to stack up against a Trafalgar and things only get better for the RN with the Astutes.
The Marine Nationale has some fine ships that they can be justly proud of. Some of their lads can hold a decent quantity of alcohol too if one mob from an Aviso in St Malo 1995 are representative!. They’re not quite there yet or for the forseeable future though!:cool: .
JonesyQuestions have been asked in Parliament as to when T45’s 7 & 8 can be expected to be ordered.
Everytime this happens the govt. come back with evasive answers or trot out the line that they’ve ordered £14 billions worth of ships bla-de-blah.
Even industry has given up lobbying for the orders IIRC so jaundiced are they with the whole mess!
JonesyLets not forget too his performance in Porterhouse Blue opposite David Jason
Or his excellent performance as Falkland Islands Governor Sir Rex Hunt in ‘An Ungentlemanly Act’.
Sad news indeed.
JonesyLets not forget too his performance in Porterhouse Blue opposite David Jason
Or his excellent performance as Falkland Islands Governor Sir Rex Hunt in ‘An Ungentlemanly Act’.
Sad news indeed.
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