Srbin,

You are slightly missing the point here I fear. There has been no convincing news that I can find that the supersonic terminal phase version of Klub has entered service anywhere. The 3M54E1 variant has been delivered to the IN and tested with varying degrees of success, but, the -54E1 is the pure-subsonic antiship version of the weapon and quite a different beastie than -54E. The subsonic variant is still powerful but is, essentially, little more than a big, long ranged, Uran.

Also, to be fair, comparing 3M-54E to Harpoon is a bit like comparing an Su-30 to an F-5E. The Russian aircraft is, obviously, superior BUT the US type was designed several decades ago, is much cheaper and not intended for the same mission!. Now if you want to compare 3M-54E to NSM, IMO, the Norweigan/European missile takes the prize every time.

Well Roel I’m going by the SIPRI report on arms transfers to India which lists an order placed in 1998 for 96 missiles of which 38 were delivered by end ’02. The missiles SIPRI lists -> 3M-54E1

I am very willing to be corrected here, but, as yet I’ve seen nothing open source to suggest 3M54E got past the technical difficulties it was suffering 2 years ago. Enquiries to a few old oppo’s has drawn an equivalent blank. Anyone who can point me towards news that 3M-54E (NOT 3M-54E1) has passed its acceptance trials I will be staggeringly impressed with!.

Partially you are right, indeed with a Tupolev-only strike it wouldn’t succeed, but that wasn’t the idea either. As I have admitted before, you need all the assets. These Tupolevs would be augmented by, normally, 5 Oscars, that would still give you something to think about. Since your AD systems will be firing at all these “easy” targets, yet a 100 Granits will be flying on a lower path.

Fair one, but, you are confirming my point. The original assertion here was that the Russians were ahead of the game on antiship missiles. I listed some of the operational drawbacks of some of the weapons that, IMO, disprove that view. Now you seem to be suggesting that missiles would have to be fired in such volumes as to occupy the target fleets full complement of director fire-channels.

Tell me why the same feat couldnt be performed, oh so much cheaper and easier, by 50 Flankers carrying 4 Uran’s apiece instead of 100 thumping great Backfires firing 100 Kh-22’s and 5 thumping great SSGNs firing 100 Shipwrecks?. That is, in fact, if it is at all feasible to target that many weapons on a task force simultaneously (which I strongly doubt).

All true Srbin but how many of them havent already been countered or are dependent on offboard targetting assets that are absolutely vital to the weapons usefulness?.

the 300km high flying supersonic Yakhont, or 130km when going low

As we’ve discussed on the Brahmos thread a powerful missile, but, hardly any new revolutionary capabilities. High altitude profile puts it in detection range of anything with a DA08 radar or better in plenty of time to initiate defensive measures. Low altitude profile only makes sense against advanced opposition and draws launching platform unpleasantly close to that opposition.

the 250-300km low flying supersonic Moskit,

LIGHT BULB datalink supporting Moskit operation is capable of guiding just a single missile at a time so salvo fire is a difficult proposition. Moskit whole raison d’etre for development of RAM, ESSM, Aster weapons systems.

supersonic 100km high flying Kh-31A/AD/AM,

A medium range supersonic diver. A profile that point defence missile systems have been designed to counter since Sea Wolf back in the 70’s.

the 500 km supersonic Kh-22M,

Modified version or not this is still the missile that AEGIS was designed to beat. Fast and powerful but still a big, fat target. Will require large volumes of missiles to break through a comprehensive AAW screen and how many nations have the capability to deploy that number of weapons?. Paper tiger.

mach 5 aeroballistic 150km Kh-15P

Get a Backfire/Blackjack to within 150km of a CVN to employ it!. What else warrants a nuclear warhead?. Paper tiger II.

The only system Russia has, that poses a threat outside the scope of existing defensive systems, is the 3M-54E version of the Klub missile. This, if it works reliably, is a startlingly scary weapon. It is a complicated piece of kit though and I’d welcome any information regarding the service status, if achieved, of (specifically) the -54E version.

Steve, can you tell me which ship carries the NSM? Indeed, None up till now. Skjold is supposed to carry it and probably the Fridjorf Nansen too. Yet it’s not there yet, so in that case, the Russians are still ahead, cause most of their systems are active for almost a decade.

NSMs now at the point where the technology is demonstrated. A test weapon recently flew 130km plus and guided successfully. Maybe its not in service but its certainly thereabouts and is a LOT more effective than anything the Russians, or anyone else, has. What other weapon can be deployed from trucks, ships/missile boats, helicopters or fixed wing aircraft with no targetting support required beyond an ESM bearing. What other weapon can simultaneously give any light escort capable of embarking an NH90-level chopper a standoff precision land-attack capability along with a Harpoon/Uran-ranged antiship capability on the same airframe?.

Simply put in today’s threat environment many navies have to justify their funding by what their units can bring to the all arms battle ashore. The blue-water fleet on fleet engagement doesnt exist anywhere anymore. With the demise of that goes all the value of P-700 and all the other weapons of that kind as an unuseable weapon is a useless weapon. Without a US CVN to try and sink whats the point of a bloody great missile, however advanced, who’s only value is sinking US CVN’s?.

[quote]As for Granit, If you shoot the hi-flyer, the second one fired goes up and switches on its radar. Takes command. The Attack just resumes, if the second one is shot, the third goes up etc. It is not clear how many missiles one can command, statements go from 1 command missile up for every 8 missiles to 1 command missile for 12 missiles… I suppose it might depend on the platform.[quote]

The selection process will rely on the low altitude pack to miss a sequence of ‘keepalive’ signals from the command missile. This will take a set time interval and on top of this is the time interval for the promotion process of a second or third missile to take up the high slot. Given that this salvo is charging in at high supersonic speeds all the while if that initial missile is taken down just before terminal update is distributed then the salvo could be damn near over target by the time the secondary is in place!.

They DO have that Kirov cruiser, soon a second one again too. And they DO have these Oscars.

Are those Kirovs and Oscars any value to them now though?. What practical mission has a Kirov or Oscar performed in the last 10 years?. The Udaloys, Sovremenny’s, Akula’s and even the sole Neustrashimy have all deployed on defence diplomacy missions or joint exercises at least. The Oscars, Kirov’s and Slava’s may have kept those USN battlegroups away, but, seeings as they were never coming in the first place haven’t they been just a little bit useless this past decade?. Worse still havent they, the Kirov’s especially, drawn funding that could have been more practically used on other vessels or better infrastructure. Theres the legacy of P-500, P-700 and the rest – a few big ships that dont do anything but look pretty in text books and impress the uninitiated on internet forums!.

Now, there are smaller supersonic weapons around, which do not have these features.

If speed and range where enough to reliably get the job done Roel do you think that P-700 would carry ECM and armour?. If Granit needs such penetration aids what makes you think that Yakhont wouldnt?.

For Jonesy on this point, it’s better to have multiple planes with a single missile, gives flexibility and allows to attack from three or more different directions, hence create some more trouble for the defenses.

What happens if squadrons of strike fighters arent available solely for maritime strike, or, if they need to stage out and available tanker assets will only support a limited number of airframes? Multiple missiles on a single airframe is a much more efficient attack than single missiles on multiple airframes.

I knew that, yet I’m not that sure wether the Russian sub won’t hear the slow mode either… You still have to open those torpedo hatches before a launch too.

Torpedo doors and pressure equalisation would again, ideally, be actioned in the target baffles. There are few reasons that a captain would willingly give away his location by flooding tubes or cracking open tube doors right in front of a hostile contact. Either way the advantage goes to the boat with the sonar edge.

As I already mentioned, gives more flexibility to your attack and of course, if you arm a plane with these subsonic missiles, like Harpoon or Exocet, you’ll have to close up to 130km (a bit closer if you want your missile to have some fuel left to increase its effectiveness in the hit), within the ranges of certain AD systems. If you carry one of these heavy long-range missiles, you can stay out of these systems’ ranges and get out with your planes.

Like we discussed on the Brahmos thread. Range for a Yakhont type weapon on lo-lo profile is also about 130km. There is a range advantage only if you choose a high midcourse approach for the supersonic weapon. That high midcourse giving the defender a much easier time detecting the inbound.

Political question there Sean. When the contracts were awarded BAe put a gun to the Treasury’s head and managed to get prime contractor status bulding the Thales design!. Crazy but true.

Almost immediately they set to work modifying Thales’ design to their own ideas ramping the price up. MoD went on a witch hunt after the Astute SSN and Nimrod MRA4 debacles and so BAe went back to the gun-to-the-head routine threatening massive redundancies at several UK yards. MoD werent having any of it this time though and stripped them of their prime contractor status. The Project Integration, between BAe and Thales, is now being pulled back in house to the MoD Defence Procurement Agency with a private company, still to be named after Northrop-Grumman backed out, acting in a consultancy role.

This is the very much abbreviated version of course. The full story plays out here: http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cvf1-1.htm

Sean,

Yep Indians right the French Porte Avions 2 is a CTOL adaptation of the Thales CVF design. There are some pictures of the proposed design on the Royal Navy board over at warships1.

As for everything else Golden Dragons’ written everything I would – but with much better illustrations. I never would have gotten in with that Pinyata line – excellent stuff! 😀

And even if this is not the case, they can buy spares from Ukraine or manufactur their own parts.

A unique spares chain, for those systems already in the 95% built hull, is an expense that smart navies avoid. Be that relying on the manufacturing country to be able to maintain low-volume spares fabrication facilities at a sensible price or setting up the same facilities yourself. Either way its an expensive solution and an unreliable one.

Our Navy operates ships with engines that have no spares anymore. Not in the entire world. They just produce their own parts onboard the ship if small and ashore if large.

The RN do their own manufacturing too, and take a pride in churning-out higher quality parts than the factory made items. This tends to just be for make-and-mends when deployed though. As an illustration Invincible once shed a cog in one of its main gearboxes at quite an innopportune moment. Fortunately, as three hulls were built/building, decent spares holdings were assembled and a new gearbox could be shipped and installed (a major job required cutting through three decks to get the old unit out and the new one in). If the ship had had to wait while a new gearbox was fabricated it may well have missed the Falklands War with the consequences of that potentially being extreme!.

Generator sets and osmosis water plants are all changeable if you want to do that. It’s not even military, they can order them from a commercial company with the next overhaul or refit.

Again thats a very expensive solution Roel. Especially for the capabilty you get from this hull. If there was no other AAW solution in the PLAN there would be a reasonable case for accepting the extra costs just to get the capability, in part the Indian ‘defence’ for Gorshkov goes along these lines, the PLAN though do have AAW ships, embarking SAMs if not AShM’s, so the Slava looks more like the ‘luxury’ item and less like an operationally required unit to me!.

Sev,

Its not really the weapons themselves I’m thinking of here as, naturally, you’re quite right about the naval artillery and S-300’s etc. What I was more thinking of was generator sets, osmosis plants and all those sorts of systems. A big ship means lots of ancilliary systems and it will be a little late in the day for the Chinese to try and introduce their own systems in the vessel!.

I was aware that Bazalt wouldnt be transferrable, in this case though, I dont think that its a serious issue. PLAN doesnt posses the ISR assets to support P-500 targetting anyway!.

The fact that they do have the S300F, is probably an indication that they will build a ship for it. Couldn’t it be based on Slava? I think that’s what JonS meant, they need a hullshape to fit this system in. It’s not just tonnage that allows a certain system.

The Russians have a corvette design thats mounting an S300 VLS and TOMB STONE array so I can imagine little issue with the Chinese mounting the system on a 7000 ton 052 hull. TOMB STONE would be an easier fit than a TOP DOME on that sized hull but it would be a great deal easier to modify the superstructure of the existing 052C design than design a new hull from scratch or try and adapt a thumping great hull like a Slava then build a run of them.

Hydropod,

Deploy the RIF system? There is no indication what so ever that RIF will be used on PLAN ships to this date. The rumoured 051C is just that, a rumour. Seems PLA is very happy with HQ-9 at least, PLAN’s view on HHQ-9 as of yet is to be seen.

The only reason to even look at the Slava would seem, to me, to be some systemic failure of the new Area-AAW system aboard the 052C’s. I’d agree that that doesnt seem likely as, afaik, the 170 vessel has already been commissioned into the PLAN and is operational?. Hard to see why they would commission a vessel who’s primary combat system was marginal!.