So, at the risk of beginning another marathon, you agree with Trekkie that we should disregard our own deprived in favour of corrupt elites in third world countries. The ONS just a week ago, confirmed that no one knows where our foreign aid money goes except that it doesn’t end up where intended.

Do let us have the benefit of your wisdom in reply to my last para. at 3#

Is that aimed at me John?.

Do you not get the term ‘sweetner’ as in £200mn out and £2bn back?. You were the one that brought up space programs etc. I take it you are not referring to somewhere like Bangladesh with comments about capital intensive schemes??. I take it you have enough sense to see the value in providing alternatives to radical madrassa’s in Pakistan for young lads over there?.

I take it you know what we spend on the Social Security budget and that the UNCLAIMED benefits pot in this country is approaching £15bn in benefits and tax credits annually and that we fund the NHS to a tune in excess of £110bn. Are you seriously, honestly, saying that the, by comparison, tiny sum that goes out is significant?.

For those who care enough, there is a parliamentary petition available which seeks to specify that only those in genuine need should receive some of Britain’s 14 billion GBP foreign aid largesse. It should not go to countries that appear to have a surplus of disposable income as to maintain their own space programs and other capital intensive schemes.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125692

Wow is this old hobby horse still going?. Those ukippers really dont let go of a good scare story do they?.

The money here is generally well spent….money to Pakistan to help move young lads out of the more reactionary madrassa’s…clearly a good investment for the future being one good example. As for India, and this to you John especially, the BBC link shows what our aid there is about:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34787765

….the state aid (note not the private NGO assistance) is a sweetner to try to ensure more of that Indian money comes into the UK…nigh on £2bn a year of investment is worth chucking in a bit of money to help out with the odd humanitarian aid project here and there. Philanthropic?. Not for a second…and at India’s request its being wound up you’ll be happy to hear.

Bleating that its money leaving the country when the investment coming back in dwarves it is just crass ignorance and stupidity though.

Well the French, Dutch and Irish rejected the European Constitution so the oligarchs did a bit of tinkering and brought it back as the Lisbon Treaty, which the Irish approved and the French and Dutch didn’t get a second vote, did they? The oligarchs will always win because they make up all the rules to suit purpose.

But that question will never need to be asked. Bit by bit the process moves the juggernaut forward and it will only be stopped by a fundemental breakdown of EU institutions, like the Euro. If we do vote to leave I have a feeling that the EU tanker might be holed below the water line and although initial attempts to plug the hole might succeed bit by bit it will get larger until the tanker eventually sinks, or mixing metaphors, the edifice crumbles.

Impressive mixing of the metaphors there in fact charlie :). There are two opposing views on the EU trajectory post UK departure…largely depending on how successful UK is post divorce. If we, as the Leave team believe, become the object of American, Chinese, Indian, Brazillian etc affection and are courted, feted and showered with many gifts then the danger will be that exit becomes an attractive option and the lashings holding the EU raft together will become very strained (see I can do metaphors too!).

On the other hand if, by leaving the larger entity, we see former EU partners actually become competitors and the national-level trade deals so much touted by Leave dont actually materialise or, more likely, dont materialise in a manner as favourable to the UK as hoped for. Then us kicking our heels wondering what went wrong as we sit lonely and unheralded off the coast of Europe will be a great benefit to the EU as an example of the dangers of pseudo-isolationism and the need for more, and quicker, integration not less.

I have actually been enjoying the Leave campaign so far as its appeal to certain elements I expected to have a galvanising effect on Europe ‘just in case’. I was hoping to see more concessions being offered to undermine Leave. It doesnt look to be happening though. So either the oligarchs dont actually believe we will leave (as I dont tbh) or they are quite happy with the gamble, believe they’re holding the high cards and they are waiting to see if we blink.

Rii,

in Libya, indeed, the UK and France LED the charge to create today’s failed state/ISIS breeding ground/international terrorist arms bazaar/mass immigration transit hub

Wasnt that the popular uprising against Gadaffi that led to the failed state Rii I recall us being late to the party and not stepping in til things really got nasty?. Unless you see the sinister hand of the DGSE and James Bond behind the scenes from the outset?. Aren’t you meant to be all for revolution…power to the people…..throw off your shackles and all that anyway?. Or is it just the west you dont like and shackles are fine as long as they arent American?.

The point is that the problems do not lie in Washington, but in London, and indeed the point holds more broadly: the real problems facing the UK, and which are animating anti-EU sentiment, do not lie in Brussels at all, but in London, with domestic configurations of political power and the interests thereby represented.

No Rii we had immigration issues well before the EU had a hand in things. The issues arent even really in Whitehall though I do understand your desire to make that the reality. The problem is detailed on this thread quite clearly…if it wasnt the half-witted diatribe against the US its the utter conviction, amongst even the articulate and pleasant, that the EU is johnny foreigner trying to stamp his jackboot on our green and pleasant land. Its very elementary xenophobia.

as such, the convenient punching bag that is the EU will probably have to go before the British (English) people are willing to seriously question their masters at home.

Interestingly I think you are close to the mark here, but, you’ve let your agenda dictate your conclusion. When the problem is xenophobia its very easy to make an external group the root cause of the problem. In this case its the EU…not even necessarily the people in other countries….rather its the perceived Rolex-wearing expense-accounted illuminati who sit around dark recesses in Brussels and plot ways to enslave the honest hard working people of Albion. They are the punch bag you note. If they were dispensed with those illuminati, the ‘real’ power behind the govt (nudge, nudge), would pop up in London and things would be all their fault instead. There’s always illuminati when you need to find a scapegoat.

Correct me if I am wrong but in the past decade the Irish, Danes and French were obliged to turn out for a re-match….

Taking the Irish example….is it a re-match Charlie?. The proposal was changed to make it more palatable to the Irish. Is that the EU overlords winning the vote or the Irish winning because their resolve forced the EU jackboots to change their proposal. Certainly the same question asked over again would have been defeated over again….which was the point.

I’m trying to contrive a slippery way in which the EU brass could make the question ‘do you want a federalised europe’ into something that a majority would agree to and I’m not getting there to be honest!.

So there is a general acceptance that the groundswell of public opinion across Europe is anti Federalism…thats a good thing and it does trot with my personal observations. I’m not sure I understand the idea that if the populations of member states vote down further integration then the EU lords and masters will keep having votes. A recent observation is that organisations dont have votes until they are pretty sure they know the outcome will be in their favour. If the population is generally not supportive why would a second ballot return a different result than the first……theres no sign of a second vote in Scotland is there?. Same reason!.

If theres no support and nothing, like the example of the Euro itself, that is going to galvanise new support on the horizon I have to ask the question again. What is there to federalisation that makes it any more than Brussels fantasy football?. If it is fantasy nonsense then why does it command the attention it seems to?.

John,

As the saying goes ‘its all about the money’. Successful people tend to be quite bright….idealism, much as I love your romantic view of it, is always tempered by the need to feed the kids, replace the BMW and make sure that the Christmas bonuses get paid. Thats being flippant of course, but, the theory holds. People in general arent stupid and wont vote for something that threatens their lifestyle unless there is no other option. Witness the baseless ‘fears’ of the independence decision that tempered down to sensibility in the end and the last general election result that demonstrated the understanding that the finances have to be brought back into line before we can afford the luxury of another bout of Labour spending excess!.

Those of us voting to leave the EU will be doing so for many and varied reasons. For me the key reason which is rarely given a mention here is that of the EU’s declared policy driving towards a federal superstate. This was not what we voted for in 1975 nor did we empower our governments to sign treaties strengthening the EU structures in pursuit of that ideal. I believe that such an ideal is a pipe dream and first the Euro and then the EU itself will collapse. But the damage done to its members en route will in some cases be irrepairable. I do not want to be a part of it.

Its an interesting point of view. The one question I’d ask though is, if you are predicating your entire view of this debate on the superstate question, have you looked at the apetite across Europe for a superstate or have you just assumed that all the other member states are champing at the bit to throw away their national governments and bend a knee toward Brussels?.

I can tell you with absolute conviction that there is no interest in a federal Europe in the Netherlands…having had that conversation with a hall full of Netherlanders…its not on the cards for any reason whatsoever…game over…the end. They dont want it. I’ve encountered that opinion with some frequency in (surprisingly) Belgium, Portugal and Germany as well. The French seem to be the only ones with a strong interest in political union and that seems to be from a belief it would leave them in the driving seat of the whole continent. A view not missed by the rest of the continent!.

There is an appreciation that the point of the Euro was an attempt to set Europe firmly on the path to political union. After all a joint currency without a single, unified, monetary policy would be conceivably a mess and, without union, a single policy would be a massively difficult vehicle to drive. We’ve now seen that a single currency without a single monetary policy IS in fact a mess and for the predicted reason. We stayed out as we knew that union wouldnt happen and the currency was never going to avoid the choppy waters its been in so long. Point is, if the Euro has failed to railroad member states into political union, what is there on the horizon that actually would be able to make it happen?. Especially in the face of so little interest. By extension….if political union is little more than a Gaullist fantasy is there any real reason to let it sway opinion that much?.

Rii,

Well done on taking advantage of a serious debate to get in one more weighted blow for your anti-western agenda. Not a cheap and opportunistic move at all.

John,

It was, I believe, reported a few days ago that UK tax take from North Sea oil had dropped from £2bn last year to somewhere around £35mn this….owing to the precipitous decline in the price of a barrel and, again if memory serves, a helpful approach to the oil companies R&D taken by the powers that be. Suffice it to say that it takes no extra-sensory perception to see what that kind of decline, to a Scottish economy that would have been dependent….near future at least….on oil-revenue, would have been. It works like this basically John…£2bn down the tube is bad!. Sorry that is a bit patronising but it is a glaringly bloody obvious point!.

How is it intolerent to tell an idiot that he’s an idiot….notably if you have a great example of him acting like an idiot?!. Naturally common courtesy applies and some level of diplomacy is generally warranted but, in the specific case of a good friend who wont entertain a vehicle without a BMW badge, he’s a pillock and is often told such. I see no sane reason why wishing to open your eyes, open your mind and be prepared to learn from new experiences could be considered a ‘bad thing’. Most especially when the opposing response is the cro-magnon grunt ‘dont want to’. Education is a wonderful thing John people really do need to be told not to be afraid of it. See xenophobia I guess….theres that consistency of yours again.:applause:

Fun though this has been I think its gone a long way to prove my point. Certainly I’m happy I’ve no further points to make here, so, I guess we leave it with the clear appreciation that come polling day we will not be ticking the same box!. Cheers John.

John,

I sidestepped nothing…I’m just not giving you, I suspect, one more opportunity to list a litany of faults which, like the fees argument, is largely spurious. My point here, as witnessed by the earlier wonderfully evocative piece that only seems to have missed out the gleeful old ‘cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys’ line for Dads Army stereotypes, is that the ills of the EU, many though they are, are not the issue they are the excuse.

The response would be the same, from the same people, if the EU was run like the Japanese rail system. The issue is simple xenophobia and, no, I dont mean the darker extreme of that. There is an old joke that says “I’m not racist…I hate everyone equally’ to some that is not sad humour its genuine aspiration. Should those people be pilloried?. Personally I’d say yes they should. Much the same as I pillory those I know who will only buy and drive BMW’s….much the same as I laugh at those who only drink Starbucks…anyone who deliberately limits their own frame of reference through stubborn ignorance deserves little else. At very least they make their own opinions valueless and dismissable.

Making observations on sidestepping though it is noteworthy you didnt touch the point about Scotland being safer, and with greater opportunity to prosper, in the wider union. It is illustrative that you would be supportive of a reckless act that would jeopardise that smaller states future. You are consistent if nothing else John I’ll give you that!.