Cant offer much for the wafu stuff but, for the warships file, perhaps Farraguts immortal words from Mobile Bay might fit?

‘Damn the torpedoes’

Don’t waste your time old chap, you’re in the wrong league

Let me explain this to you in simple terms John.

I said “I was wondering about what had happened to the steady stream of EU nations that we were given the ‘nod’ would be following us straight out of the EU”

You said: “As far as I am aware, no one on the OUT side of the referendum on Independence Day, 23rd June, has ever inferred the likelihood of a mass exodus from the Idiocy.”

I said: “http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti…tegration.html“

You said: “What’s the problem ? That is his point of view and a reasonable one to boot.”

You’re full of it John. You’re right though in that we are in different leagues.

Doesnt that end badly when we lose the telephone sanitisers???

Yup.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?p=2343835#post2343835

Phrased as if ID’ing a plane from a fighter is the same as ID’ing it from a TELAR.

The transport planes were being used to supply Ukrainian troops who were killing their associates. The Buk’s range is pretty limited, so that window may have been all they had.

Maybe they did ID it as a cargo plane. Equipment doesn’t always work correctly, see IFF during Desert Storm.

Respectfully they have no cast iron guarantee that they weren’t about to be engaged. If they’d ID’d it as a cargo plane, it’s unlikely but as we know, that ID (if it happened) was unreliable anyway, so you can’t argue it both ways, say they didn’t ID it (and accuse them of negligence) and then pretend they did ID it when it comes to a consideration of being under attack. Sometimes improvisation happen in war too. Stuff gets fitted ad-hoc to aircraft it isn’t usually fitted to. Do they even know it’s a Ukrainian plane at this point? Obviously not.

There you go again. They hadn’t ID’d it but you just argued that they had and therefore knew their life wasn’t at risk. Make up your mind, which is it?

And I suppose all the TOW missiles supplied to Islamists came with an Ab-Initio training course? How about those Stingers supplied to the Afghan?

And that’s different from firing salvos of rockets into a town centre how? Or firing a very loosely guided tactical ballistic missile at the same? They used what they had in the best way they could. Same as anyone would in the same circumstances.

Now have a look at post 156 and you’ll see where the Ward reference came in. As I said I didnt make the connection between the C-130 and MH17 because there isnt one. I used his point to expand on the principle of when you shoot and when you dont.

Respectfully you’re so much on a stretch here trying to find the slightest little glimmer of credibility for your position its beyond sense.

1, They knew it was at 33k ft. So its not on a rocket run is it?. I know of nothing in the Ukrainian inventory that can accurately bomb from that altitude. You make up a fantasy notion about Ukrainian DEAD missions as a possibility when its been reported that the Ukrainians didnt believe a radar SAM threat existed.

2, So its now an ‘improvised’ threat at 33k ft. So they fired a missile at an unidentified contact on the basis that it might be something hostile?. Thats in a civvy air corridor and cruising at civvy altitude and speed. I mentioned the case of the VARIG DC10 didnt I?. No…professionals with BVR missiles dont fire them as you guess at in this case. Not unless they want to end up in the Hague.

3, Ive no idea whether training was supplied with the weapons you list or not. I’d suggest it was provided as to get the desired return from supplying the weapons in the first place. As a point of fact it makes no difference either way. Just because America or whoever supplies weapons without training doesnt make Russia’s supply of a Buk TELAR any better does it?. Unless you are point scoring in a school playground again.

4, You are now suggesting that its ok to slaughter civilians in an airliner because its no different to dropping artillery barrages on villages?. Its ok to do it because they were trying their best?.

I think that last one nails it for me Starfish. You’re not quite right are you. I’ll leave it there having made all the points I need to thanks.

MSphere.

Starfish brought up the possibility that the firing crew could have believed their lives under threat and used that as an excuse to fire on an unidentifed contact. My question was against that possibility….

He knows that no high altitude bombers were in service in that air force at the time. Just as he knows its very unlikely that a Ukrainian strike type would be on a SEAD mission flying at 33000ft along a civillian air corridor….especially when there was no recognised area SAM threat!. I wouldnt dispute that a cargo aircraft is a legitimate military target. Sharkey Ward identified that Arg C-130 before he shot it down though….see the difference?.

I think this question equals to one regd. justification of giving and using a TOW ATGM weapons system to Syrian rebels.. I certainly would not blame US if some Syrian beardie accidentally managed to blow up a bus with it.. I am not having double standards on Russians or Americans, I simply realize that war is totally different from peace and the things that happen in war are not even closely comparable..

This is the key point Msphere. Neither would I. Nor would I blame Russia if it were a Kornet or RPG that blew away the bus. I’d blame the weapon operator as he had every opportunity, using the system within its design parameters, to ident his target before he fired.

That isnt the case with a lone Buk TELAR though is it?. To employ that system correctly it is part of a wider ADGE with search assets and sector C3I. It is not designed to operate as a standalone system in a non-permissive environment. As such it should never have been provided to the people who fired it and it damned well should never have been fired.

So are the USN and USAF complete idiots then?

All of them?. No. The authority that detailed Vincennes to a volatile region with the CO that she had….very definitely yes….whoever did that was a complete idiot.

After the transport plane was shot down the Ukrainian ATC shouldn’t have had military sorties and civilian flights in the same area period, end of story. And all the airlines with any sense, were avoiding Ukraine during the same period.

So it was the Ukrainians fault for not understanding that the Russians would fire on unidentified targets….not the Russians fault for firing on an unidentified target you mean?.

I think you are missing the point. People don’t want the particular individuals to pay. Putin will suffice!

On the contrary I’d say the TELAR crew and, most importantly, the team behind getting the TELAR to the Rebels should pay. Maybe it will be a lesson for others in future.