…no, I wouldn’t say it’s at all hard to understand, though I’m still not sure exactly why an aircraft would get within range of the DAS without being detected by anything else. I cannot believe that the DAS has more than 100km range against a fighter in anything other than a tail-on aspect; given that many ‘binocular’-type limited area systems such as the OLS-35 are limited to below this, what are the chances that a wide-angle system would perform better? Rather low I would’ve thought. If it’s inside this range then it almost certainly knows the F-35 is there, one would expect via the use of its radar or someone else’s via a datalink, both of which should trigger the supposedly world-beating ESM gear on the F-35 and stop the scenario from ever getting to WVR.
I don’t dispute the utility of DAS for finding aerial or ground targets, but in the case of aircraft the F-35 should by all rights not even need DAS to help because it will almost certainly already be aware of them by either its radar, ESM gear, or off-board sensor sharing, and kill them in BVR, long before they ever close if they’re a threat. In the case of finding missile targets, it may represent an improvement over existing MAWS, but extended warning time alone (which may only be measured in seconds anyway) is unlikely to be enough to somehow ‘make manoeuvrability irrelevant’.

No way 100 km :o. That’s in the range of the chin-mounted EOTS. But let’s say 30-40 km is plausible. I repeat, the DAS will be usefull because the ESM system will work only if the enemmy fighter is emmiting. And you can figure, that the adversary knows it too, so it will try to limmits its radar emmissions and to rely as much as possible on off-board sensors and IR equipment. In these conditions, if the enemmy is out of the F 35 radar coverage (120 deg.), it might escape unnoticed by the F 35 driver. Not so with the DAS.

As for the “manoeuvrability irrelevant” part, look at it from this angle: the DAS will extend to a full sphere what the nowadays HMS (JHMCS, DASH, etc.) offer for the frontal semi-sphere. I hope you won’t ask me if if a HMD is of any use. 🙂

Sorry, but I really can’t see how what you’ve posted relates to what I said at all. Obviously it picks up missiles and sees things well at night. I never contested that. What caused my eyebrows to raise was the claim that it ‘made manoeuvrability irrelevant’ because in the event of not getting the first shot (which DAS should have little effect on in A2A at least as the F-35 would seem certain to see any approaching aircraft from a very great distance with its ESM gear anyway) then seeing a missile heading for you is no great comfort unless you can do something about it. When you combine the fact that DAS operates within a sphere that will be covered by a Mach 4 missile in a matter of seconds, and that the pick-up of long-range missiles will be delayed even further because their motors will have gone cold some while ago, other than chaff and flares, it’s difficult to see what the JSF driver is going to do except manoeuvre.

It’s so hard to understand that the DAS will not only show the incomming missile, but the launching aircraft from significant distances? The DAS is like having a 3rd gen IR sensor such as those in targeting pods, such as Litening, ATFILR, Sniper (see the attachements and note the ranges), but providing a spherical coverage, instead of just pointing forward. The sensors will track any target that in its field. with enough precision to provide a firing solution. If the enemy is far enough, a maneuver could be be initiated, in order to engage from a better position. In a dogfight, if the ennemy plane is in a better position (behind the f 35), the DAS can cue a WVR missile, if that missile has a LOAL capabilty (not yet present in the 9X but present on the ASRAAM). Also, the ESM will work only if the enemy plane is emmiting. But if it doen’t, for exemple when he is directed from a low frequency ground radar, or if the F 35 was picked by an IR sensor, the DAS can help.

There is another issue too. If the F-35 traveling 1100 km/h fire a U-turn missile against something behind it, the missile will have to overcome 1100 km/h just to stand still in the air, its 4-6 sec fuel is probably spent by that time, so it will just fall of the sky.
Nice fantasy tho

This scenarion is about a dogfight, when the atacker is close behind the F 35. For a glimpse of the 9X capabilty, go to http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/aim-9x/ and check the video “Unleasing the Next Generation Sidewinder”. So, yes, the 9X will fall, but it will fall in the other guy head. It is true that the datalink is not yet implemented in the 9X, so for the LOAL it will take 2-3 more years.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-01.html
Not good news in the F-35 fanclub..

Anyone who quotes Kopp should be banned for at least 1 month …:p

While I’m sure it’ll be ready I can’t ever imagine a pilot sacrificing precious AMRAAM slots given his huge advantage in BVR for a capability he shouldn’t even need. The ‘DAS makes manoeuvrability irrelevant’ is also an interesting claim as it’s interesting to see how DAS enables the aircraft to avoid any incoming missiles if he doesn’t have any jamming in his rear area and a nozzle from a very large engine with fairly unimpressive IR damping. I mean, sure you’ll be able to see the missile heading for you, but I wouldn’t have though that capability would ‘makes manoeuvrability irrelevant’ by any measure unless you have serious anti-missile capabilities to back it up with. And with limited aspect jamming, limited IR signature suppression and no towed decoys it’s a little hard to see how that could be claimed.

Go to http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/MissileLaunchDetector/index.html and check the two videos down the page. As you may see in the second video that shows the f 22 flying downtown Orlando, there is no jet-induced degradation of the F 22 MLD starring back. And consider that the F 35 DAS is more advanced than the F 22 MLD. Also, in the F 35 the DAS will detect the launching plane, not only the incoming missile (this is what today MLD can already offer).

Yes really.

How many times is a ground radar level and head on with a fighter? 😉

Apparently ~ 5000 times 😀 (the F 117 flew ~ 5000 war sorties in 1991 and after, and only one was shot)…

The trick is to know the direction of the enemmy radar and to tailor the trajectory so to offer the lowest RCS. See in the attachement the F 22 central MFD.

I think that SAAB shoud team with Stavatti…:diablo: They both have the needed expertise in 5th gen. fighters.