aurcovHmm, that’s very similar to the Gripens kill/loss ratio in international excercises, WVR and BVR. I don’t have any real numbers, but I’ve spoken to alot of Gripen pilots and from what they’ve told me I don’t think I’m too far off.
When did the Grippen achieved A 108:0 kill ratio???? Are you sure that you had the conversation with a Grippen pilot? Sounds more like a Saab marketing guy :p
As for international exercises, the Grippen faced Finnish F 18 and Norwegians F 16 MLU. Both performd bettre than the Grippens… :diablo:
Anyway, comparing the Grippen with the F 22 is hilarious.
aurcovAn interesting quote from “The Flyer Online” (the magazine of Langley AFB-http://www.militarynews.com/flyer/news1.html):
The F-22’s capabilities were highlighted during several air-to-air engagements that included facing an opposing force at a four-to-one disadvantage.
aurcovWe don’t have the best pilots in the world. We have pretty good pilots (between the best in the F-16 comunity worldwide) with maybe the best safety record due to operational circunstances in the world for more than 10 years (we have never lost a single F-16 due to mechanical problems, but two bird-strikes and one low altitude maneuver)…we have asisted twice to Red Flag along NATO and USAF, and do it wonderful there…most of our participations on every south american exercise have been remarcable. So we’re not lybians.
Pit, don,t get me wrong. It wasn’t my intention to bash Venezuelean pilots. But it is trendy to bash the AFs the US has defeated in the last decades, Lybia included..
So what you have to said about 200Kt nuke-capable Kh-22N/NA?…would they reach the carrier isn’t my problem, they would destroy it and anything around a nice radius. So your argument is not correct.
I should be more specific: there is no conventional air-launched missile that could sink a US carrier. I doubt that the package for Venezuela includes any nuk-u-lar (:p) Kh 22…
Status of some programs in Russia is not known. Some are true lemons, some are far more advanced that most believe, and there are lots of programs whose existance is not known in the west.
Agreed, but some people here are convinced that the R 37 will be available soon …
aurcovThere’s no Avionics Technology in the US which Israel doesn’t have can’t have probably already possess.
1. operational AESA radars for fighters;
2. PowerPC based avionics;
3. RWRs in the class of FalconEdge, ALR 67 (V)4, ALR 69 (V)A;
4. Jammers based on MPM;
5. AMRAAM-like missiles (midcourse datalink);
Same here. The probability of a F-16 in IAF colors is the same as seeing a pig fly. With wings and insignia and airline livery.
The F-16 is regarded with caution by the IAF for several reasons-
1. Its relatively higher attrition figures, as a type, vs other modern fighters
2. Its being operated by the PAF
3. As a design, its at the fag end of its design life
4. Its American hence sanctionableThese factors are all stacked up against it- a F/A 18 E/F if it comes with AESA, despite its airframe limitations, is still a newer design and may swing the deal.
Agreed with #2 & #4. As for #1 & #3: :p
aurcovNo, just pointing out your mistake. You said none had been bought. Not quite right.
BTW, the Pentagon are defining the first 424 F-35 as LRIP – at an average flyaway cost forecast to be $116 mn.
So those 424 are for USAF? Mening that only the following ones (cheaper) are to be exported? :diablo: That still means that the export JSF will be cheaper thatn the EF? :p
aurcovBTW Gaddafi’s air force and army were crap, the Libyans were arrogant and almost untrainable even the Soviets complained about it, not to forget the wars he lost against such formidable opponents as Chad and Tanzania.
And suppose the Venezueleans are the best pilots in the world….
I doubt US would need to worry about 24 Su-30’s, but ofcourse one Aircraft carrier goes down and the greatest megalomaniac dubya won’t see his rating go up ever.
There is no air launched anti-ship missile that could sink an CVN.
The R-37 will likely be integrated into the next Flanker as the R-37M will be used in their 5th gen fighter. Whichever won the competition (between the R-37 and KS-172) was supposed to be made operational with all future Russian fighters. Seems the R-37 won, though the KS-172 might have become available for export.
Some people simply can’t understand that R 37 does not exist an an operational weapon…
aurcovWhich of these are ready to be sold?
aurcovAnd what weapon a Flanker can launch has a 200 km range?
aurcov“An F-16 launches a missile, maximum distance: 60km (40 miles). Do you all know from what distance the Sukhoi S-30 can launch? 200km,” Mr Chavez said.
200 km??? It seems that Hugo can became a member of this forum; he could joint the ranks of Flanker worshipers :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p
aurcovWrong. The US has ordered some – or did you think Lockheed Martin was starting to build it on spec? On April 28, 2006 Lockheed Martin was awarded the first advance acquisition contract in support of Lot 1 Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) for five F-35A Joint Strike Fighters. The contract was valued at $901 million [$180mn per plane] and was slated for completion by January 2010. Obviously, that’s not going to be typical, but as the JSF project office expects to pay $116 mn each for the first 424 (i.e. more per unit than the first 424 Typhoons ), & the US military don’t have a great record at overestimating the costs of weapons, I think it’s going to take a long time for the JSF unit price to be below that of Typhoon.
:p :p :pNow we are comparing LRIP with full-rate production??? Bacuse in this case, yes, the JSF is more expensive than the EF! :diablo:
BTW, the average procurement cost (not including R&D) for the F-35 was predicted by the US Defense Department at $94.8mn in its quarterly Selected Acquisition Report of 31st December 2005.
And what price is this? At the factory gate, including weapons, training at al, or life cycle?
Is the F-35 stealth when the afterburner is in use?
No, its not!
Maybe from behind… The frontal RCS won’t be affected. But then again, how many plane will survive a well placed AMRAAM to see the JSF from behind?
F-22 money wasting? http://www.pogo.org/m/dp/dp-fa22-Riccioni-03082005.pdf
You should know by now that pogo is a piece of ****, not a relieble source of information.
aurcovYou’d lose immediately. Currently the JSF is going over $140mil for USAF while Typhoon does not exceed $85mil export!.
Currently no JSF were sold, so no one can quote a price :p
I place a counterbet – that Typhoon will always be cheaper than JSF, no matter what happens..
Good luck! So 650, sorry i forget about the Saudi deal; so 700 planes will come cheaper that over 2,500!
That applies for Typhoon and Rafale as well.. What they cannot solve by their RCS, they will solve by stand-off weapons
Yes, and US are not the largest manufacturers os stealthy, long ranged, GPS guided, datalinked weapons (JASSM, JASSM-ER, JSOW and future LOCAS)…Not to mention cheap SDB (40 km stand off)…
That was about the F-16 and its rather poor service record
?????????????????????????? Some 25 countries purchased over 2500 F 16s, and used them on airfileds from equatorial areas to polar circle; some of those countries used them in conflicts with a 74:0 kill ratio; not to mention that the over-all class A accident ratio is somewhere 4.5/100,000 flying hours. Poor record? :p
Ask Belgians and Dutch how cheap that was…
The 2 AFs you mantioned (as well as Norway and Denmark, by the way) are using the Vipers from 1979! Some attritiom related costs are inevitable.
Nope.. Phantom introduced BVR fight on regular basis. Your fathers were exactly as self-confident in this new capability as you are being now regarding stealth.
And “the fathers” were right about it. Already at the end of Vietnam war, the Sparrow started its road to the title of #1 BVR missile! Not to mention the stellar performance in Iraq (1991). If stealth is going to perform in the same way, EF can be called QEF-the #1 target drone for the training of JSF pilots :diablo:
Considering stealth has never faced anything better than ancient S-125 Nevas and SA-6s, I find the claims about it being a combat proven technology as very exaggerated.
BTW, even those early SAMs managed to shoot one down..
That 1 in over 5000 sorties! Not bad at all…
KKM57P is just echoing part of what Riccioni has to say about Stealth. And I’d trust his (Riccioni’s) judgement before I trusted yours, because he’s forgotten more about fighters and fighter design than you or I have ever known.
Yeas, sure…Riccioni was notoriously wrong about something as simple as the Raptor’s fuel ratio
aurcovSome time ago I have placed an offer for bet about the JSF price never sinking below $100mil per unit..
The offer still counts and I am sticking to it.. Anyone? If you people are so much persuaded about the utterly ridiculous $50-60mil figures promised by Lockheed, then why are you so afraid?
It would be a risky bet.
However, I place another one: if the JSF is going over 100 mil. $, the EF by then it would be over 200 :diablo: Anyone? 😀
aurcov1) F-35 is an all aspect Stealth aircraft, but the Frontal RCS figures of both aircraft are far closer than is often claimed. .
The RCS of JSF anf EF “far closer”????? That’s a good one :p 😀
The supposed radar range advantage enjoyed by F-35 is unproven, and will be eroded by Typhoon’s DASS. For JSF to exploit its claimed RCS advantage it would need a robust passive detection/designation/engagement capability and a passive or fully fire and forget weapon
The 81 is supoposed to be comparable with the APG 79. This one can detect 1 sqm. at 180 km. Satisfied? :diablo: And about the much vounted DASS, it is only now starting to investigate crosshair jamming techniques, something that frontline USAF fighter enjoyed for years (ALQ 135). So, give me a break with DASS….
And once you’re in a multi-versus-multi situation, each JSF is either limited to two or four BVR AAMs, or loses all of its Stealth advantages, while each Typhoon carries six
Since the RAF can’t speak from its own combart experience (when was the last kill for RAF? :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: ), we have only USAF records. In most of the A-A missions they did not employed more than two AMRAAMs. So, the EF can carry 20 missiles, and it still it will dye.
Typhoon’s performance imparts more velocity to the missile at launch, further increasing reach and lethality
Itis true that firing at high velocities would allow increase the missile NEZ, but who told you that the JSF can go supersonic? It can’t do this without AB, but no other fighter can’t (don’t give me the crap of EF leaflets quoting 1.5 M in supercruise :p :p :p ). Also, don’t forget that the JSF can carry more fuel than the EF, so it won’t be a big problem to accelerate to, let’s say 1.2-1.4 M
aurcovthe zarkman died as he lived………..a bloated fat pig.
its a pity his death wasnt video taped and shown worldwide like those beheadings he carried out.
My opion as well. But for some morrons, the fact that some of his victims were American, made his crimes acceptable…The mentioned morrons did not even consider that most of his victims were, in fact, Iraqis…
aurcovthe zarkman died as he lived………..a bloated fat pig.
its a pity his death wasnt video taped and shown worldwide like those beheadings he carried out.
My opion as well. But for some morrons, the fact that some of his victims were American, made his crimes acceptable…The mentioned morrons did not even consider that most of his victims were, in fact, Iraqis…
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