SkipperMany future platfrom design options presented here:
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/index.html
Includes, FSC and the OPV for the BRITISH :rolleyes: navy
MUFC/FASM link is, IMO, quite an interesting (speculative) outlook on future life underwater …
Skipper
SkipperGood point, MarkV!! 😀
I had been thinking about the storm induced losses as well!
Still, if they’re looked after in SAFE surroundings then they are still at less risk than in the air.
I also reckon more have been lost outside than inside but that’s another story!… 🙂
Skipper“Just out of interest, which aircraft do you currently have custody of and throw hard earned cash at?”
Don’t know what difference it should make to the debate but I am neither an owner or custodian of any aircraft!
Why I feel qualified to contribute to this debate is that I “throw hard earned cash at” a number of classic and rare motorcycles.
I do, however, get all of my riding enjoyment out of the more popular machines I “own”.
The VERY rare ones I keep well-maintained and displayed, yet as true to their “as-built” condition, rather than risking exposing them to some “sorry I didn’t see you mate” type in a Volvo.
I therefore feel, very passionately, that these rare machines are NOT mine to own, but that I am merely helping a particular marque of machine to be around for a longer time than it might if I don’t do my small part in its preservation.
Skipper
SkipperHi Mike,
“If the owner wants to spend his money, time and effort recovering and rebuilding them, it is his property to do with whatever he wishes. Back to the question “who are we to dictate what he should do with it”?”
Yes, such people should be congratulated for spending great amounts of money and effort into such projects. That goes without saying. I’m not knocking such efforts in the slightest.
However, I still feel that there should be a MORAL OBLIGATION that if the recovery of such an aircraft provides the wider-world with a UNIQUE chance of seeing a certain type of aircraft then, again, all effort should be taken to preserving it for the future.
Regards
Skipper
P.S. – I’m not “dictating” to anyone, just expressing my opinion! 😉
Skipper“It’s up to the owners. Who are you to dictate how they spend their money?”
For the “last of the breed” type warbirds I feel that the “owners” should morally consider themselves as “custodians”, and no more.
“Yes”, it’s their money, but by taking on custodianship, it should be part of the package that they will do all they can ensure that they give that aircraft the best chance of long term survival. Flying (IMHO) does not give these aircraft the best chance. Preserved in a museum does.
If people want to experience flying such rare birds, or demonstrate them to others, then build a replica. Personally, I would so much prefer to see a faithful replica fly than an original – newbuild ME262 and Flugwerks 190s spring to mind.
Please leave the “irreplaceables” tucked up in a cosy museum for future generations to enjoy.
Skipper
SkipperTaifun,
This link points towards it belonging to a Nieuport 12…
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/nieuport.html
Regards
Skipper
SkipperVerner Small’s local slnat on the list of Arran crashes includes those already listed, i.e.
Hi
Some known Arran crashes
Cheers
JerryANSON N4939 – 28/1/41
ANSON DJ472 – 2/8/42
ALBACORE L7109 – 9/9/42
B-17G 42-97286 – 10/12/44
B-24D 42-41030 – 20/8/43
BEAUFORT L4479 – 30/8/42
C-60 42-56014 – 30/9/43
CHESAPEAKE AL941 – 22/7/43
MARTINET MS757 – 18/1/44
MARTINET MS756 – 17/2/44
SEA OTTER JM880 – 31/8/45
SWORDFISH HS552 – 5/9/43
However, he also notes incidents relating to:
Seafire near Auchariach (possibly the nearest crash site to Kildonan but clearly the prop does not belong to it!)
Barracuda in sea south of Cumbrae (a little bit far from Arran)
Wellington in Brodick Bay
Another Swordfish (a forced landing rather than the above crashed example!)
Walrus in Lamlash Bay
Another B24 on Am Binnein (the infamous one which killed 22)
Skua on Brodick Golf Course (which involved no injuries)
and “AN OTHER” in the sea off Corriecravie (which killed 3).
From this list (which Verner felt was INCOMPLETE when he gave it to me in 2001), I would hazard a guess (as I don’t know too much about the type) that it is most likely to be the Blackburn Skua!!
Why?
1. It had a three bladed prop.
2. It was apparently involved in a low energy incident on Arran.
3. From Papa Lima’s latest photo, I also reckon that the prop could still be a variable pitch, which the Skua had (attached photo show the “spindlyness” of the Skua’s VP prop and shaft, which I believe looks very similar to the one in Kildonan)
4. From the early (1938ish?) use of the Skua and the Britsol Perseus powerplant, this might open up the possibility of using steel blades?
Just my latest “two cents”!
Anyway, I hope to be in Arran in a few days from now so hopefully we’ll solve this soon!!
Regards
Graham
SkipperSorry to send the thread off at a tangent, but can you tell us any more about this? I met met a nav off ‘Skipper’ and would be interested to know what happened to her.
Moggy
Hi Moggy,
I recall you meeting Oreste Leto (Nav) and Floyd “Marc” Marcusson (Top Turret / Engineer) at the 388th’s 2003 Reunion at Knettishall! I’m still in touch with these chaps as I am trying to research the complete story of Skipper from production to the present day. She was a B-17 with quite a remarkable story to tell!
The most complete story of the tragic loss of “Skipper an the Kids” (as researched by me) is now told in two recently published books:
1. “Eighth Air Force Bomber Stories – a New Selection” by Ian McLachlan, and
2. “Tail End Charlies” by John Nichol and Tony Rennell.
The first book tells the story of the final flight in 20 odd pages of words and pictures in quite a bit of detail, whilst the second summarises the story to around 6 pages without pictures. Both bring home the tragedy of the loss as I’ve managed to get first hand anecdotes from those in the 388th, those on the Isle of Arran and perhpas most importantly, the surviving relatives of those 11 young men who died.
Basically, Skipper’s last flight was to provide:
1. A test flight to prove that she was still combat worthy having just had a number of engines and a complete wing replaced following much battle damage.
2. A navigational exercise for three rookie navigators.
3. A familiarisation flight for a rookie crew who had just been assigned Skipper but who had only been trained on B-24s in the ZOI.
4. A ferry flight for the 388th Medical Officer, Major “Doc” Bell, who had been assigned a 6 day task at Prestwick.
5. A ferry flight for a ground crew member who wanted to visit his Scottish girlfriend for Christmas.
6. Perhaps most infamously (as has been reported in other publications, inc Flypast) she was fetching booze from Prestwick for the forthcoming 388th’s Christmas parties.
An unfortunate weather forecaster at Knettishall made a poor forecast which meant that the forecast wind direction was nearly 180 degrees out from that actually experienced over southern Scotland. Hence, with the cloud cover and snow storms found over Scotland that day they unwittingly overflew Prestwick and straight into the 2,800ish feet mountain called Beinn Nuis. Unfortunately, the fellow in charge of the ship, a high experienced Command Pilot named Captain John N. Littlejohn, jr., was charged with its loss purely because he was the highest ranking pilot on board. It was not even clear if he was piloting the ship as his body was found together with the other pilot (they and a navigator were interred in a group burial in Fort McPherson, Nebraska). For me, his only mistake was to believe the weather forecast he was given!!
Interesting to note that within a 1/4 mile from Skipper’s crash site on Beinn Nuis there is also the wreckage of a B-24 and a C-60. Both also lost whilst trying to find Prestwick in poor weather. The crash of the C-60, as local legend has it, necessitated the “closure” of the Island until it was found as it reputedly contained some of the plans for Operation Overlord. Also, akin to Papa Lima’s “discovery” there is a very nice piece of early “Star and Bar with red centre” lying in the open on one of the local farms – should be in a museum as far as I’m concerned but no one seems interested!
Graham
SkipperHi, Papa Lima,
I hope to be back on Arran in two weeks’ time and would be happy to assist in trying to identify this interesting “find”. Having been investigating a number of Arran crashes over the years I was unaware of this prop. Where exactly in Kildonan is it? I was only playing with my young boy on the beach there two weeks ago – what a small world!!
I too have a list of Arran crashes (seem to remember in the region of 16 wartime crashes!), sourced from my friend Vernor Small, who not only made the macabre discovery of the crash site of the B-17 “Skipper an the Kids” on Beinn Nuis, but his wife (Grace) is one of the leading figures in the Heritage Museum in Brodick. I’ll ask him what he knows of the prop.
Did you visit any of the other crash sites when you were on Arran? What a beautiful place to indulge in one’s hobby!!
Without the list in front of me, I still seem to recall that the swordfish crashed in the sea off Corrie. The only a/c I recall from the Kildonan area is a Seafire. Doesn’t rule out another Swordfish, though!!
Will let you know what I find out…
Regards
Graham
SkipperEven more interesting, Doc Stirling!
I don’t disagree with you or Cees at all. Just interesting to see the reference to the 8,000 lber with direct reference being made to that particular Stirling. Also, 15 sq didn’t use Lancs until the very end of ’43! So the date conicides with their use of Stirlings :confused:
Wish I could scan the pic for you, but scanner gone TU! 😮
Will try at a later date to get this image. 🙂
Regards
Graham
SkipperIn Roger Freeman’s excleenet Mighty Eighth War Manual on Page 205 is pictured B-29 41-36963 at Glatton on 11 March 1944
Returned to ZOI on 10 May 1944
Sorry, scanner isn’t working at the mo… 😮
Regards
Graham
SkipperDistiller,
Somewhere I have a photo of the 1944 “tour” when it landed at Knettishall – I’ll try and dig it out…
Has this question not been asked before on here?
Graham
SkipperPhilip,
Bol*ocks to the historian!
Do what you feel is right.
I’ve had a similar issue when researching the SKipper “an” the Kids B-17 crash on the Isle of Arran in Scotland.
Just because one of the reasons for that flight was a whisky run to Prestwick people have turned round to me and said things along the lines of “well, it serves the silly bug*ers right. Flying in such bad weather just to get booze”.
Well, as John Nichol wrote in his most recent book “Tail End Charlies” when he used my research and concluded his thoughts on SKipper’s whisky run, “the waste of it all could hardly be laid barer” – he was refering to the loss of all eleven of Skipper’s crew who were, after all, still young men. They were mostly a rookie crew training aboard their new charge.
What I’m trying to say, perhaps not too well 😮 , is that just because of one person’s mistake, we shouldn’t judge the rest of the crew. And after all, sitting here today, who are we to say that “your” pilot didn’t have a very good reason for “going around again”. Also, we all make mistakes – “to err is to be human” – just some mistakes lead to more tragic consequences than others, as in this case.
Go for it mate!
Regards
Graham
SkipperRoger, probably 2.000 pounders, and yes they are long and thin and the heaviest bomb that would fit the Stirling’s bombbay.
Cees
Cees,
Just seen a nice photo in the 15sq story “Oxford’s Own”. It shows, as described in the book’s narrative:
“War artist Dame Laura Knight takes time out from her painting to inspect a 8,000lb bomb, which was about to be loaded into the bomb bay of Stirling, EE912, LS-U, “Midgley’s Flying Circus”. The original photograph carried the legend “One of a clutch for Adolf – Laura Knight, 15.10.43”.
It also appears that 8,000lb “cookies” were carried by Stirlings. Interesting!
Regards
Graham
SkipperFlat 12×2’s date of March ’44 rings a bell with me. It definitely landed at Knettishall and one other operational base before returning to the ZOI. I think the other base was Glatton.
Regards
Graham
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