KapedaniPretty much everything you said about Trepca being the most important mine in Europe without which nobody would have batteries or lead…
The Trepca mine and industry complex is (or rather was) the most important mine complex in Europe…certainly. As I said half of Europe was supplied with batteries from this complex. Ever saw what was inside that Renault you used to drive?? Go check…
Now you want to be silly by exagerating with “nobody would have batteries”…go for it…
Where some book is published is neither here nor there – could you tell me the sources you used for your information please. You know, I hope we aren’t going to enter into another cycle of me asking for your sources and you saying that sources exist. Maybe this time you can just tell me where you get your figures when I ask for them first time round (second now already).
:rolleyes:
I just told you the source…its a book published in YUGOSLAVIA about the Trepca mine complex…from its earliest history in antiquity till the time the book was published (early 80s). Its in Albanian…as the purpose of such books was to be send around to respective countries ministries for advertisment…so this ended up in the Albanian counterpart…where my dad would get ahold of it…so I could read it.
I await you to ask me the source for the third time…as I’m sure you will.
Or you can go online and maybe type in “Trepca” or Stari Trg or Zvecan or so forth.
I don’t know why we have to turn everything I say into “BS…prove it!”.
Ok…then I should say…the sky is blue…and you will say..”BS…prove it!”
The earth is round…”no its not…your just prejudice!”
Probably not evil, just heavily biased and prejudiced. If you can’t see why your gross subjectivity invalidates a lot of your arguments and information there is no point in me trying to explain it to you.
Ok thank you…
Many members on this forum would benefit greatly from the realisation that Russia in 2006 is not Russia in 1998, 1999 or 2000. In 2000 Russia was still recovering from a massive economic collapse and funding for all branches of the military (and military industrial complex) was only starting to increase after being at a crippling low. The budget has now been increasing healthily, for e.g. 2005 was the first year in which procurement for the Russian armed forces exceeded export sales – this is expected to be repeated this year.
You obviously didn’t understand the POINT of all this. The 2000 figure was to show development of the missule UP TO THAT POINT. You just conveniently forgot to quote the next sentance after that…which gave 2004 figures…
As for Russia being so much different today than before…yes…10 aircraft a year is indeed a 1000% increase over previous years…very admirable. At that rate it should only take 50 years.
KapedaniBecause much of this sounds like BS (much like, if you don’t mind me saying, other information you post) and so I’d like to know the sources of your information please.
What did I say in there thats BS?? Care to be more specific??
There are books written on that in Serbia…I’m sure…they even made books written in Albanian on the Trepca mines (made in Yugoslavia…in Albanian). I have one…would you like it? Its in Albanian though so I’m sure you’r going to disregard it as “biased” (until you read where it was published)
Kapedani, we might easily get into serious MiG-29 discussion, if you want. But let me warn you that I have spend three years creating a CD dedicated to this aircraft so if you really want to mess up, you are very welcome and I can assure you that the outcome is pretty clear even now.
First.. Let me tell you what SMT means. S is obviously a legacy from the Izd. 9.13S variant, M means Modernizovanniy (ergo upgraded), T means Toplivo (ergo fuel). Now, one don’t have to be a genius to see that a MiG-29S with new avionics suite and ground attack capability is called MiG-29SM. BTW, its prototype was marked as blue 331. The new avionics suite was an enhanced version of the Izd. 9.14 marked as blue 407.
SMT varies from SM by a relatively small structural upgrade which modifies the fuel system and installs two ‘wet’ joints on the back of the aircraft which enable a bolt-on attachment of a dorsal fuel tank. The cost of these upgrades compared to costs of new black boxes are so small that they effectively rendered the SM variant unnecessary. This conformal tank can later be easily removed within an hour, thus, every SMT IS a humpback Fulcrum, no matter whether it has the tank installed or not. There is nothing like what you refer as *previous “SMT” aircraft were basic miG-29 airframe with only SMT compoenents*.
Ok…regardless…is the aircraft in operation? No…That was the point Garry was making. I don’t see the point in discussing particulars of previous versions…I don’t really care actually.
That is not necessary now.
I didn’t say whether it was necessary or not…I just said it wasn’t in service. Why this needed to be dragged on as much…I don’t know. The aircraft isn’t in service…thats all the statement I made.
and they already field R-77 capability with some of their 9.12s, 9.13s and 9.13Ss (field upgrades).
Yes…there’s 16 9.13S…we’v already established that. Who says they have upgraded any of their 9.12s to do that? How many? Says who??
It is not. I don’t see differences..
Orders…difference is orders. We know France put orders for those missiles…who says Russia did??
The fact that Vympel produced 200-300 R-77 a year does not automatically they were unable to have produced more.
Right…when did I say it lacked the CAPACITY to produce more?? I’m just saying what they are producing…
These are numbers several years old.
The 200-300 anual figure is from 2004…and I’m not sure if it includes Kh-29s in that figure (the article didn’t specify). Majority of R-77 capable aircraft were produced in 2005-2006…entering service this year. Great…were orders for R-77s put in for those?? I don’t know…do you??
But simply they lacked orders for more units
Same thing I said…
Once more…if by 2000 only 200 were produced of which 100 were used in tests…how many do you think were in service with any operational wing in the RuAF?? I don’t think it leaves room for much. So what is yor argument?? That they have 9.13S in service therefore they MUST have R-77 in service?? Probably not before 2000…they didn’t. And after that?? There were a lot of export orders for the missile…leading to that production figure from Vympel. Did RuAF acquire missiles during this period??? You havn’t answer this question…you’v only said what they COULD do or what they had the capacity to do. I’m not denying the capacity…I’m saying what was actually done?? The figures seem to suggest…not much at all.
As with Russia, no one really knows how many were R-77 ordered but I seriously don’t think that Russia could have problem getting their RVV-AEs.
Jeeze…for the 15th time…I’m not saying they would have a problem…the question is what HAS been done…not what COULD be done.
That is a faulty logic. Vympel was producing thousands of R-73s, R-60s, R-27s and other missiles since years, they have production capacity far exceeding your 200-300 units per year. If they get orders, they increase production run, clear and simple.
its not faulty logic if it has nothing to do with what I said. If Vympel’s production run was 200-300 missiles per year (not necessarely all R-77s!!)…and this figure is from 2004…and until 2000 only 200 were made…this simply doesn’t leave ROOM for any major delivereis to the RuAF…this covers export orders.
Orders is what matters…this is what I was saying to Garry too…production is done according to orders…well the production run doesn’t seem to suggest RuAF orders…unless they started this year…which could be the case…but neither you or I know if thats the case.
I only can agree with him. For the role Russian AF uses their MiG-29s, MiG-29S are quite sufficient
No…let me re-phrase what he said…to keep you updated. He said SMT hasn’t been introduced in the past few years since it first flew…becasue the S upgrade was sufficient for the RuAF to keep it going for those years.
It has nothing to do with the technological level or similarities between the two…it has to do with production runs actually. I told him the number of S variants is tiny…therefore its not an argument that they havn’t upgraded them becasue the S upgrade is sufficient. 12 aircraft aren’t sufficient to say the MiG-29 fleet doesn’t need upgrading.
Capisce??
SE means MiG-29S for Export, ergo Russian AF logically does not have any SEs
Tell that to Garry…again I’m just quoting his words…
The fact that there only are 12 genuine 9.13S (MiG-29S) is not disturbing, since software for 9.12 and 9.13s is being progressively updated with 9.13S standard (that means R-77 capable, even if only one target at a time). It is like upgrading your graphic card with a new driver that recognizes R-77 as a weapon and provides encryptment and trasnfer of data, that is all.
I understand how the upgrade works…I havn’t heard from any source that this is or has been implemented in any other aircraft except the S version. Its just your word…
You are right. There aren’t really 60 operational aircraft. There are far more. Even some Su-27S are R-77 wired today. And yes, those are in operational service.
Once more…says who??
Guess what, in 2001 Jane’s reported a rather controversal sale of three R-77 RVV-AE missiles from Ukraine to Slovakia. Why from Ukraine and why to Slovakia? What aircraft in UAF or Slovak AF is cleared for R-77? None? Will you bet?
3 R-77s sold…therefore that must mean Slovakia’s MiG-29s are R-77 capable. Why?? They were planning on using those 3 missiles operationally?? The purchase of 3 missiles can be done for many different reasons…including yes…maybe they want to upgrade them to that level. It doesn’t mean they are or that the missile is now operational with Slovakia.
Just from my memory, Taiwan has F-16As that are AMRAAM capable. They may not be officially fielding AIM-120 in service but the machines are wired for ARHs and ready to use them in case of conflict with PRC.
Except there’s a difference. Does Taiwan have AMRAAMs in use?? Did they buy some?? If yes…thats one story. The question here is…did RuAF buy R-77s for use?? You havn’t answered that question at all…nor has anyone else…
THAT is the difference here between for example MICA or AMRAAM and R-77…were they actually bought by that AF in any sufficient quantities to even equip the small fleet that can carry the missile??
You’r just going round and round…but not answering that question. And its ok if you can’t…nobody knows…but I’m looking at the production figures fro the R-77…and it doesn’t seem that way.
Producing 200-300 units for Russian AF is a piece of cake for Vympel, you can bet your a$$.
I already addressed it above…no point in repeatng it 5 times…
Why do you think Russian AF officials need an Albanian wannabe expert to tell them what they ought do?
Excellent reply…
I only see one person with pointless arguments here.. And it does not come from New Zealand.
I don’t know…he seems to have a fonding for the word “idiot” a whole lot. I thought there were rules in this forum?? I guess they don’t apply to everyone…
I am sure Garry would never have suggested an UB upgraded to SMT standard . He is definitely aware of the fact that SMTs are all singleseaters while UB is a twin-stick trainer. That is why his opinion matters here (unlike yours).
That would only matter to me if it mattered that my opinion mattered to you on this matter…but it doesn’t.
I don’t need to explain what Garry said earlier…it was all quite comical…but its also comical that I’m being attacked for smethig Garry said.
I should then be glad my opinion doesn’t matter here…
Now you are twisting it. You were saying that all Su-34s are pre-production aircraft. I proved you wrong. That is all I needed to know.
The matter of discussion was whether or not SU-34 was in operational service. Garry and Slobo were insiting it is in operational service…saying Russia already has 12 of them.
Obviously the aircraft is not in service…it is undergoing tests…and as I explained earlier…there are 10-12 aircraft in exitance…MOST of which are prorotypes and preproduction…including 2 production examples.
Production examples or not really had nothing to do with the issue…its petty bickering on something pointless…the point was whether they’r operational or not…which they’r not.
Who said that Zhuk must be incorporated in order to call the machine a SMT? Zhuk-M was proposed to SMT-II only (which is far more expensive and for most users not quite necessary)
Great!! I said nothing of the sort otherwise…I suggest you direct your arguments towards Garry and Slobo or someone else in this forum who suggested all those things for Serbia’s MIG-29s…
Again I’m being targeted for something Garry suggested…go figure…I didn’t even suggest such an upgrade…but what the hell…
How is it different from USA?. They also don’t sell weapons to their enemies…
Again petty argument of I say patato you say potato…This was about R-27P…now it turns into export behaviors of the US. Ok whatever…
I am not comparing anything. You were the one telling USSR refused to sell even their dirty clothes, I clearly proved you wrong. That is all I needed to say.
Its funny how you can prove wrong something I didn’t even say…
Ok let me explain it in a bit more detail…the question was…R-27P was in service since 1991 but yet “no one” in the west was aware of this until recently. Why? And I said…becasue only a small number were made, for a secretive specialised mission (that of AWACS hunting)…something which they wouldn’t want to advertise…beasue the simple knowledge that your oponent has this missile in service would affect its performance (you change tactics for example). Also beause introduction into service happened in the days of the USSR…when the Russians weren’t as EAGER to advertise and publicise things as they are today. Today…they publicise everything…becasue there is an export potential…and becasue the export potential is what keeps these companies going…which is why they released the R-27P for export.
Now there’s a very big difference between exporting MiG-29s and something like this…
—————–
Ugh
——————
The 23rd IAP alone should have 24 Su-27SM’s
Yes thank you…
Oh shut up Kapedani. Albania and Kosovo are a total embarrassing shambles and the KLA killed more ethnic Albanians than any other nationality and you have the cheek to make snide comments about Serbia’s government?
I can’t help it…I’m evil…
KapedaniWhat exactly do you call a *true* SMT? SMT programme has several stages and sub-stages, they are all open architecture now, my dear.
The previous “SMT” aircraft were basic miG-29 airframe with only SMT compoenents. I’m talking about the hunchback one with the extra fuel-tanks..the definitive SMT version.
Anyway the point I was making…and which is true…is that the SMT is NOT in operation by the RuAF yet. That is the case…Garry just wants to think otherwise
What is wrong with that? Armee L’Air has only 30+ Mirage 2000-5Fs equipped with MICA.. plus some Rafales. Would you dare to call MICA as *not in service?*
Fine…thats a different story.
Let me put it this way then…by 2000 Vympel had produced only 200 R-77 missiles. Of these…over 100 were used already in tests during the development program. Since then, Vympel has gotten orders for about 750 R-77s from India and probably over 400 from China…these orders should be more by now obviously…and Vympel’s production run…according to them…is about 200-300 “R-77 and Kh-29” anually.
Now…how much room does this leave for RuAF procurement for these missiles?? I don’t think it leaves any room at all.
So? What exactly do you want to say?
Nothing really…I get lost in Garry pointless tangents. He keeps saying MiG-29S and SE and so forth being “sufficient” before SMT comes around. I’m just pointing out to him there’s only 12 of these in operatioanl service…so boviosuly this isn’t “sufficient”
60 aircraft is quite a lot. Definitely a lot enough to field a missile for those..
Except for one problem. There aren’t really 60 operatioanl aircraft. As I said 12 MiG-29S…last year they got 24 Su-27SM and this year they’r planning on 11. These are all the OPERATIONAL aircraft capable of carrying this missile…and as I said most of these came into service only within this year.
60 aircraft if you count all the prototype and pre-production models of various tyes which are in tests or company show planes and so forth…but not in operational service.
Now…if most of these aircraft came into service within this year…how many R-77 missiles do you think Vympel was able to pop off to meet its export requirements as well as…IF…the RuAF made any orders for them
Certainly you could buy missiles for these aircraft already…the question is…DID THEY??? Just becasue a plane is capable of carrying the missile…doesn’t mean the missiles were bought already.
Do you understand what I’m saying?? Garry just goess of pointless tangents which really had nothing to do with the point of this thread…
That only proves you got no idea.. You cannot upgrade an UB to SMT.
Take it easy there flex…I wasn’t the one suggesting the upgrade…Garry was 😉
That is a load of rubbish. Bort No.45 is declared as first series example..
OK…and Bort 45 and the other production Su-34 (there’s 2 of them)…are operational with WHICH UNIT?? They are production aircraft…yes…but the point I’m saying is…they’r not operational YET…they’r undergoing tests.
SMT-1 upgrade costs $4mil and clears the airframe to zero hour status.
Ok…but thats SMT-1…without any of the major improvements, no Zhuk radar…
ROTFLMAO. I wonder how MiG-29 accomodated 24 export users, then…
Hmm…USSR’s traditional allies got them…and then later whoever had the money could get them.
Are you SERIOUSLY comparing MiG-29 sales t the introduction of a highly secretvie missile system for a very specialised reason in small quantities…in the days of the USSR??
—————
Garry…I won’t reply to any of your rubish…you need to learn to talk without insulting people at every turn. You’r a child…period.
———————-
* Oil in Vojvodina, Trepca in Kosovo (for e.g.).
Hmm…hardly comparable. Vojvodina’s oil reserve and production are comperativly very small compared to the Trepca and Mitrovica mines and factories. Vojvodina’s oil reserve and production are actually nothing special…even by Balkan standarts it puts the oil reserves and production there well below Albania (don’t look at our production now…we’r not making much now…but back then), Croatia and obviously Romania. So its actually small patatoes.
Trepca was a lot more than mines…it used to provide about half of Europe with batteries of all kinds…not to mention zink, coal, lead, cadmium, gold, silver and many others…this was without a doubt one of the…if not the…most profitable business in Yugoslavia.
Histroically its been so as well…it provided Rome with most of its gold and silver…it provided Germany with 40% of its lead in WW2 and its batteries. This is not small patatoes.
The point was…how much of this money was going to Kosova?? Almost none. You can’t compare it to Macedonia or the mountains of Montenegro or the rural areas of Bosnia…they had nothing to begin with…Kosova had Mitrovica.
Which is why the Serb government is so insitant on trying to split up Kosova so Mitrovica falls on their side 😉
Why?? You actually thought they cared about the Serbs living there?? Its the mines and the factories…
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..a good point, I haven`t seen any too. It is not wise to judge it according to photos posted on internet or in public books.
Thats not what I’m judging it on at all…read above.
He acts like a stubborn journalist.
I may…but him repeatedly calling me an “idiot”…makes him what?? 😉
KapedaniThe mines, as productive as they once were, could never really be called Yugoslavia’s most important resource. Neither were the workers there the poorest, besides, miners are hardly going to be highest paid class… Although it is interesting to note how the Serbs who worked in Trepca were just as poor as the Albanians.
I was talking about Kosova in general…not specifically for the miners…
KapedaniFor every article I have read on the Su-27SM, I have read about four on the Mig-29SMK.
I don’t know exactly what your issue is..but you still havn’t answered the question…if these planes are operational…WHICH UNITS are they in?? Go ahead…let me know.
I’ll keep telling you…there are 3 prototypes of it…in fact onyl one is a true SMT the others only have components of it. You just don’t want to accept it and keep repeating its in service…and then you call me an idiot.
I don’t respect you. Be a bit more honest and that might change.
I certainly don’t respect you…but I don’t go aroud calling you an idiot.
I am talking about the C and CE models (western transliteration S and SE). Both of which entered Russian service. With R-77 capability and an integrated ESM/EW suite… you tell me if if could be better than an older model Mig-29…Idiot.
Garry…you tell me they didn’t need the SMT upgrade becasue up to now they had the MiG-29S…I told you they only have 35 of them…That doesn’t qualify as “they don’t need an upgrade becasue they already have good ones”. No they don’t…they have 35 planes…
Actually…small correction…there appear to be ONLY 16 MiG-29S in Russian service…only 12 in actual operational use with the 14th IAP at Kursk…and 4 more used as test aircraft at other facilities.
So…THIS is the sort of info which says whether an aircraft is in use or not…and whether or not there really are R-77 missiles being produced for them
Vympel says (well last time I checked in 2004), that they were producing about 200-300 R-77 and Kh-29 missiles anually…all going for export. This is what I’m saying…the missile is in low rate production…and most if not all are going for export. RuAF isn’t the customer for them.
…and Mig-29SE, … and Su-30M,
Su-30M is not an operational type either…nice try though. Only the original Su-30 is in service…about 10-12 of them in total in the same unit that also has the Su-27SMs…
Certain because?
Becasue they weren’t…
4 airframes are going to be patroling your house…
Idiot.
As I said you’r quite pathetic…
Yes, of course, you want to dismantle the Serbs best fighters in its airforce for serbia’s sake… right.
:)…I do my part…lol
You mean like Kosovo now?
Here we go again :rolleyes: I don’t know whats wrong with you people….but I see that facts and numbers don’t make much of a difference when you’r working with your “heart” instead of your brain…
Its very amusing…considering 1991 the census showed about 350,000 non-Albanians in Kosova…the 2000 estimate by the Statistical Office of Kosova was 260,000. Given the complex conditions of the 10 years in between…this shows quite a different picture.
But hey…don’t let me with my facts and figures confuse your “heart”…its in the right place.
You’ve admitted yourself that they have at least 35 Mig-29Cs operational. They started production of R-77s in 1992. I think it is pretty much up to you to prove they don’t have any operational R-77s.
Hmm…I have the felaing you have no CLUE how Russian aviation industry works…what operational means…and what “in production” means. Of course R-77 is in production…there’s a lot of export orders for it. Question is…how many of those orders are from the RuAF?? Well I’v already explained it to you…you just can’t understand it…how many R-77s do you think they have “in use” if they only have about 60 aircraft capable of carrying the damn thing to begin with…half of which came into service only within one year.
LOGIC…its a precious thing…
So ethnic cleansing is much better than war, because people just lose their houses rather than get killed?
LOL…I think you’v managed to outdo yourself…this is an even funnier joke.
Not what I said at all…you just confuse yourself helplessly.
Not to mention Russia’s habit of introducing upgrades during routine overhaul… makes Russian tanks very hard to identify (ie the precise model) as older tanks recieve the upgrades as they are overhauled and look rather like the newer models.
Huh?? LOL…what the hell are you talking about?? You seem to have the habit of confusing prorotypes they show at trade shows with real production or operational machines.
So what are you suggesting… the upgrades exist, they are being implimented at a slow rate, but they must therefore be storing those they have upgraded for them not to be operational… like I said… idiot.
Garry I get the impression you just don’t understand English all too well. I can explain it to you in Albanian if you won’t…but I doubt it would make a difference in you understanding a single word I’m saying.
You confuse yourself with a lot more than English it appears…what I said…and I thought the words I used were pretty self-explanatory…I didn’t say the programs are non-existant…i sid they’r not IN SERVICE. Do you understand the concept of IN SERVICE…and the difference between that and prototypes you see at trade shows?? I don’t think you do at all…
Ahhh, so they must have more than a certain number before they can be called operational because of the size of the Russian Air Force? From that I suppose until 4-500 F-22s are in service and operational then they aren’t operational either…
You still don’t understand do you…I’m talking about the R-77 missile…not the aircraft.
Well if you don’t understand I can’t help you.
So the Mig-29UB upgraded with the SMK upgrade can’t drop LGB? (and it is directed by fighters using the datalink… not the other way around… idiot.
:rolleyes: You’r really pathetic…if all you can say is “idiot”.
Ok well then Mr. Smarty…1 MiG-29UB in Serbia’s AF…is going to be upgraded to SMT standart…and become an effective strike aircraft for such purposes.
If thats what you call being smart…I’m glad I’m an idiot.
Garry you really ought to send this to the Serb MoD…they’d love to hear that idea of yours.
Why not threaten Austria with subs? SLBMs or land attack cruise missiles would be very effective against Austria.
You…don’t…understand…at…all…
Its very funny I have to say…
SA-2 is not mobile enough to be dragged to Serbia, and the SMT upgrade would allow medium height strikes that make MANPADS ineffective.
:rolleyes:
Yeah, cause Albania really gave Serbia a pasting didn’t they… Not.
Garry I realise now…perhaps too late…I’m dealing with Kobra’s English-speaking clone. At least you write in more understandable terms than he does…
4 Mig-29s and the infrastructure to handle these aircraft are probably worth a billion dollars.
Really?? lol
They are as operational as the F-22, they have all their systems and equipment, now it is just down to creating tactics and drawing up an operational manual for regular use.
Once more you can’t seem to understand the difference between prorotype, pre-production and production aircraft. F-22 is OPERATIONAL in UNITS…Su-34 isn’t anywhere near that. They plan on having a unit with 24 such aircraft only by 2010…thats 4 years away last time I checked. The 10-12 aircraft currently in existance include all prorotype and pre-production aircraft…none are aproduction aircraft.
Understand?? Probably not…
The missiles the Russians made for India and China were grown from seed in a field I suppose? If Serbia upgraded their Migs to SMT standard they could buy R-77s.
I feel like I’m talking to a child here. R-77 is in production…who said it isn’t?? The question is…WHO put the ORDERS for them. Do you understand how a factory works?? Do you underatdn the concept of what a CUSTOMER is??
Or it could possibly be that we are discussing what future growth options the Serbian air force has… like upgrading their Mig-29s and buying new airframes for the future
No…you’r discussing BS. There’s a difference between reality and BS
The main purpose of my suggesting is the reduction in operational costs. The saving over 10 years or so would be quite significant. The fact that it adds a range of weapons like the extended range R-27s, as well as the IR guided versions as well as R-77s means that it improves performance to parity with NATO aircraft, and superiority in some areas.
Reduce operational costs…on 4 aircraft (which have an operational cost of ZERO now)…by spending tens of millions on them…and god knows how much more on support equipment and so forth for them…so you can reduce operatioanl costs on 4 aircraft which serve absolutely no useful function at all…and which won’t last for more than 10 years anyway regardless of what upgrade??
Thats just a brillinat plan…
I can’t tell you what units the US F-22s operate in, so I guess they don’t exist either… Idiot.
Well I know YOU can’t tell me…even though its no secret…But thats YOU.
How many pictures of Operational Russian aircraft have you seen where they carry real missiles of any kind?
Plenty…real or training rounds doesn’t matter…just ONE picture of an operational aircraft carrying either a real or training R-77 round??? There aren’t any.
Second they build them for export to India and China, which proves it is in production, they therefore have the capacity to produce more.
I’m not going to repeat once more what I said above…there’s a 3 strike rule…if you don’t undertand by the third time…I can’t help you then.
And third, they have also had operational since before the cold war ended a model of R-27 that used passive homing (R-27P and R-27EP). They revealed its existence recently because it recently became available for export. No I can’t name units that do or do not use it, nor can I tell you the numbers in use or produced. I don’t know whether it was excelusively for the PVO or for the FA as well… but it was certainly operational.
The reason is becasue the R-27P was designed to be a very secret program from the beggining…Secondly becasue only a very small number of missiles were ever made…and thirdly becasue all of this happened in the time of USSR when they weren’t putting even their dirty laundry up for sale…
We say Kapedani is an idiot.
Garry you’v made it quite obvious there’s only one idiot in here…
Or they could buy more Mig-29 airframes from Russia or former eastern european countries to make the Mig-29s a viable force.
Or they could…or they could…but they can’t! Thast the difference between “could” and “can”…the difference between fiction and reality.
You keep entertaining yourself with fiction.
KapedaniQuote:
Originally Posted by Kapedani
Actually that Apache is a victim of a sandstorm…and it was on the ground when the sandstorm turned it over.SA-7 shot down AH-64D on January 16 2006
SA-7 shots AH-64
ABC on AH-64 apache kill by a SA-7
As you can see Capedani either Western or Russian sources confirmed the news
Dude!! The Apache in those photos crashed in 2003 during the war…and you’r posting about an incident that happened this year.
You confuse yourself…
KapedaniIts more like “Trepca punon, Beogradi ndertohet” in the context that most of the money made from Trepca, was being spent in building Belgrade.
Thats what I said…but mine rhymes 😉
Don’t hide it, divide it! Why don’t you pass those drugs on to the rest of us. 15 years? So according to you, the last plane they got was around the same time your parents were busy concieving you huh?
Ok…you tell me when was the last time they got a new aircraft…except sicne last year?? 🙂 Go for it…
KapedaniHere is an AH-64 downed in Iraq
Actually that Apache is a victim of a sandstorm…and it was on the ground when the sandstorm turned it over.
KapedaniAre those mobile Sa-2 and Sa-3 conversions?? Are they Cuban made? If so…whast the story behind them or more photos of them?
KapedaniGood for you that you trust so many people you do not even know.
Ok thats great logic…I suppose you’v personally counted and inspected every aircraft in Serbia’s inventory as well…or maybe you read what other people said?? 😉
Again you state everything with such a confidence,like you know everything.We should really stop countering your words,as you are always right.
Nor you or anyone else has said anything to counter it. Go ahead…say something…not just pointless words and arguments.
If you can tell me WHICH units operate R-77 capable aircraft, how many aircraft in those units, and how many R-77 missiles were actually delivered to these units…then you have an argument. Otherwise…what I said still stands. There were 2 dozen or so Su-27SM last year, about a dozen this year. That represents about 50-60% of the entire R-77 capable force. There’s about 35 MiG-29S which have the capability…but not necessarely are equipped with such missiles. And thats it. Some here were throwing around Su-34s and MiG-31BMs…neither of which are operational aircraft at all.
If you have other info…go for it…present it…don’t just say “well then we should take your word for it”. Don’t take my word…go tell me otherwise.
So they make missiles just for fun?
You don’t seem to understand. Most of the R-77 production is for export…if not all. There are about 60 aircraft in RuAF capable of carrying this missile. Think…how many missiles do you think are purchased for 60 aircraft?? I don’t know…but I’m going to take a wild guess here…and say not a hell of a lot…IF any of them were actually purcashed…becasue having the ABILITY to launch that missile doesn’t mean the RuAF actually bought the missiles or had the money to buy them.
I’v NEVER seen a picture of an OPERATIONAL Russian aircraft carrying R-77 missiles…never. Only at air shows…
Does Russia or any other country in the world have to publically ackowladge all the weapons that they produce or put in service?There are some things that are not released to the public.
If a Russian AF pilot farts…its in the newspapers. If they actually get anything new…they advertise it….becasue its the first new thing they’v gotten in 15 years.
I’m not saying they should orhave revealed R-77 production numbers or whatever…I’m saying its simple LOGIC that if you only have 60 planes capable of carrying this missile…half of which came into service only this year and last year…LOGIC suggests the RuAF doesn’t have thousands of these missiles laying around…for nobody to use.
I did not state anything about Su-30s and PAK-FAs
You’r fellow posters did…and you entertained the idea quite freely.
I was merely speaking about you having negative comment about each aspect of Serbian AF
If reality is negative…than so it is.
It cannot kick everbody’s a$$,but it can deter intrusions into Serbian airspace.And as i said before,that is what it is supposed to do.
4 MiG-29s can’t do that…thats the point.
You know why Kependi why we have countermeasures in our mig 29s beacuse what are we suppose to do when some stupid untrained guarrila fires a SA-7 are we suppose let the missile explode and lose the whole plane thats why they have flares.
Thank you for the explonation. Yo ought to work for Locheed Martin…
Operating only five Mig-29 is totaly nonsense.PERIOD.
THANK YOU!! This is what I’m telling them..they jump on my throat everytime I say it…maybe beasue I’m Albanian…but now that you say it…we’ll see what they say 😉
Remaining flightworthy Fishbeds could take over the air patrol role, then retirement in 2010 because of ended airframe resurs. The rest of fishbeds could serve for spare parts. You have time to build the airforce from the scratch.
PRECISELY!!! What I’v been saying all along…now be careful or they’ll jump you too.
Oh yeah they have Slatina airbase. Im not sure, did they have to take that airbase by force, or was it handed over to them willingly
Slatina is not a permanent NATO base…nor used as such…plus its in Kosova and when that gains independence they will have to deal with the Kosovar government for using the base…which I doubt they will bother with it since NATO already has access to dozens of airbases in the area…it doesn’t need this. Slatina is only used now for supporting KFOR troops there…
Taking it by force?? Serb forces retreated…there was no one there to take it by force from. Except the Russians rushed in there first…but from what I know the Russians are out of Kosova by now.
There was a saying once amongst people in Kosova which i think you might relate to “Trepca se radi, Beograd se gradi”
Trepca punon, Beogradi nderton.
Yes and Trepca was State owned company, and not only Belgrade benefited from it,but whole country,including the local workers that got payed. Now firing them due to their nationality was a mistake and brought to a deeper national hatred.
Trepca mines were the most important resource in all of Yugoslavia…yet the people working there…were the poorest in all of Yugoslavia. Something was off…
Im not sure u follow you 100% kobraforces but if you meant that there’s still serbian planes in slatina, then maybe you could get them back. There’s probably only mig-21s there anyway.
There’s nothing there. Oh wait I frogot…venik wrote there were Sa-11s and S-300s at Slatina which after having shot down 40 NATO planes were hidden there…and thats why the Russiasn rushed in to save that equipment. I forgot about that one…lol
Anyway the airbase still belongs to Serbia because Kosovi is technacally Serb land. Its just that there are too many Albanians there, and stuff like that.
Yeah stuff like that…lol
Kapedani25 years time sure…but thats so far off we can’t talk about such things now. Some replacement and improvements to Ak-47 are already happening today…of course 25 years from now there probably won’t be any Ak-47s in our use anymore.
KapedaniWhat he probably meant was the Turkish F-5 upgrade they’r doing to most of thier force. Those were the ones offered…except we had to pay for the upgrade.
i was just wondering why you shoudnt accurie something supersonic beacuse everybody around you have supersonic planes and what are you supposed to do when a jet fighter that is supersonic comes into your airspace you can send up the l-159s yeah there good for airliners but not the serious jet fighter that most of them are supersonic. Well i dont know but i just figured it out proboly you could accurie some SAM’s.
There’s no need for supersonic aircraft in Albania…if an intruder is flying supersonic over Albania…than he isn’t doing much harm to begin with.
As for SAMs…from what the MoD is saying…they plan on acquiring Stingers soon to replace the HN-5s (no idea about the Iglas though). They also say they want to purchase a SHORAD system to replace the S-60 guns which are to be taken out of service this year. Along with the SHORAD they also say they want to purchase mobile AAA system. There are plenty of such systems out there from many countries…but they havn’t said which ones they’r looking at…only that they should be western in origin and preferably from the same country to facilitate integration.
They also said the SA-2s will remain in service until funds are available for their replacement…and for that they said they would prefer the I-HAWK as a replacement. But that would be a very expensive plan…so whenever the money is available for that…which won’t be for some years anyway.
KapedaniMig-29’s were used to bomb Croatia with no losses despite presence of SA-18’s
Ok…and did it make any difference?
KapedaniHow is it easy to tell? Did you count them?
Other people did…
And how do you know all the numbers,what has been delivered and what not? Are you there to personally overview the deployment?
An AF with no money and no aircraft for it…isn’t going to be stocking up on a missile it can’t use. If 60-70 aircraft can use them…60% of them having been introduced into service only last year and this year…there aren’t stocks of these missiles rolling off a factory.
And the fact that these aircraft CAN use them…doesn’t mean they do.
Russia does not need to speed up the introducing of R-77 in the service as there are no immediate dangers. NATO and China arent going to attack them for any reason as they know the Russian nuclear deterrant capabilities that the Russian has publically said they are not afraid to use if attacked even conventionally.
Ok…pointless argument. I didn’t say the need them or don’t need them…I’m just saying they’r not there…as opposed to what Garry is making up.
You are never comparing but playing down the Serbian Air Force
Playing down qualifies as telling you that Su-30s and PAK-FAs ain’t happening?? Thats downplaying?? No its reality…as is the fact that there aren’t more than 30 aircraft in total airworthy…
Mig-29s would fly first of all above the altitude MANPADS could reach
To do what?? Enjoy the view from 15,000 feet?? Ok…go fly that high…it won’t bother anyone on the ground.
and as for SA-2-a museum piece
Why?? Serbia’s aircraft are equipped with ECM or countermeasure systems of any sort??
But as we said before,they are not going to be used for attacking but for airspace patrols.
Right…which is like saying to Austria…we have submarines! And Austria will say…so what?
IF that is the argument…which is all you people seem to be making…Albania this Albania that…MiG-29s will kick everybody’s as*s.
That is not the reason they should be kept in service…the reason should be for air patrol during peacetime or for keeping pilots flying…and neither of these reasons makes sense either. If you want to keep pilots flying…do it with a much more appropriate and cheaper plane…MiG-21s or G-4s. If you want to patrol airspace…4 of them won’t do you much good anyway.
Yes,dont mess with neigbours cause they will call NATO for help. It shows nothing on how the “neigbours” performed.
And what does this have to do with neighbours performance?? There you go with the pissing contest again. Yes its true…thats the REALITY of the WORLD you live in…you do something stupid…NATO will bomb again…which is why you shouldn’t do stupid things…and think about the future…and hand over the war criminals…and forget about Mother Russia. This is the reality…whether you like it or not.
KapedaniHad you bothered reading past the first sentence you would have noticed the quote by the Russian AF commander where he says there are 10 Su-34’s in the AF.
Had you bothered to know anything about the Su-34 program…these are all pre-production protorypes completed over the course of some 15 years. None are operational aircraft of any sort…all are test aircraft and prorotypes.
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