First series examples rolled down some years ago. The programme is slow but existant.

I didn’t say the program isn’t existant…I said they’r not in service…which is what Garry is suggesting. That much can’t be denied…nor the fact that there aren’t more than 3 airframes in total.

That is only hypothetical. MiG-29S is based on Izd. 9.13 Fulcrum-C standard and incorporates software upgrades for R-77, as well as enabling the N019 to do some kind of TWS while guiding the AMRAAMski. It is impossible to tell how many of 9.13s can do R-77ing today, but the upgrade ain’t that hard at all.

I know the upgrade isn’t hard to do…but it hasn’t been done. Its not “impossible” to tell…its easy to tell…there aren’t more than 35 MiG-29s of this series in Russia.

You need to add MiG-31BM and Su-34. Together Russia could field approx. 60-70 R-77 capable aircraft. How much is enough for you to call it operational?

No I don’t think so. Su-34?? There are 12 pre-production aircraft…used for various tests. None of these are operational aircraft with any unit. Same for MiG-31BM…not an operational kind…no more than a couple of prototypes in existance at this point.

Yes Russia can field about 60-70 aircraft capable of carrying R-77. How many missiles do you think are actually IN USE by these units for these aircraft? How many do you think were delivered to the Russian AF so far??

That may be “operational”…but hardly so by an AF the size of Russia…certainly its not a system “operational” in the same way as AMRAAM is operational for example.

I’m not saying it won’t be…I’m saying NOW…it hardly is.

Garry goes off on ridiculous tangents about two-seaters droping LGBs and directing fighters and what not…all fantasies.

Against Albanian AF, even that is a real overkill.

4 MiG-29s aren’t overkill for anything…they’r point defense interceptor…and seeing how there aren’t any jet combat aircraft in service with the AAF anymore…its job will be a very lonely one.

Thats like threatening Austria with your submarines.

I wasn’t here comparing the two air forces…but of course people here insist on doing that (if they really want to do that…they should think how well 4 MiG-29s should fare against a few hundred MANPADS and several hundred AAA and Sa-2s we have…well 4 aircraft of any type won’t even be used in such circumstances…period). You don’t keep aircraft thinking “well the AAF so and so”…if thats the way you think…then as I said earlier…you really ought to have learned soemthing from 1999 not to mess with any of your neighbours again. If instead they’r for patroling the airspace…than 4 MiG-29s are hardly worth the investment and the plan for the future should look like a very different one.

You just aren’t getting any of this…becasue you’r not even replying to anything I’m saying…just trying to get into possing contests. Not surprisng of course…

Yes I’m off to Albania on Sunday. Guest of the Albanian Air Force & will get back to you.

Really? Great…let us know how that comes out.

Of course MiG-29 is better than MiG-21…but 4 airframes…that is a pointless and useless force.

They should’t have to stick with “whats best now”…they should stick with “whats best for the future”…and thats not sticking with things like MiG-29.

Ink…its the thought that counts 😉

I never claimed they would complete the upgrade of all their aircraft this year… the fact that they actually are delivering upgraded aircraft refutes the claim the Russian Air Force has not adopted the upgrades.

I didn’t say they weren’t getting any upgrades…so you refuted nothing. I said MiG-29SMT hasn’t gone anywhere so far in Russia…which is the case.

The YF-22 also flew over a decade ago… and the Americans have plenty of money.

I think there’s a BIT of a difference between an SMT upgrade and developing the F-22. Maybe you don’t see the difference.

SMT first flew already 7 years ago…and every year since then its been the same story.

You can think what you like. If we go by what is published in the west the Russians don’t even use the R-77… but is that true?

Well “you can think what you like…I don’t care”…is not a very good response. Yes well R-77 is “in use”…In use by who and what??? Which aircraft in Russian inventory can even carry and fire this missile? Yes the 30 or so Su-27SM. Which other ones?? I know of no other type in Russian service which can even guide the R-77…so saying this missile is “in service”…is going along with all the other things you said about these other systems being “in service” (Su-34s, Mi-28s and so forth)

Again, who cares what you think?

Very good response…Likewise

The Serbs can either spend 30 million and get 5 operational aircraft that cost half what they would cost now to operate, or they can try and sell the airframes in a market that already has a few available on it… they might get 30 million for the five of them. If they go with a new jet fighter the infrastructure alone will cost a billion including retraining, not to mention it would take at least 3-4 years… and for what? An aircraft that would not even be better at doing the job that an SMT could do anyway.

Hmm…how about this…WHY would you need 4 interceptors in the next 3-4 years?? Expecting a war?? And if you are…4 interceptors are going to save you??

This is why it makes no sense even keeping these things…let alone ridiculous things like SMTs. Those are just jokes…

Yeah.. that is the reason they listen to you… you just have their best interests at heart don’t you…

This is a forum…people are allowed to talk even about things that aren’t related to their country. Don’t want to listen?? I could care less..and I’l be free to tell you its a joke to think of such things.

If fighters can only be used to wage war then why does Switzerland have any at all? Having an operational fighter force can only be about the Serbs starting a war again. Idiot.

The only “idiot” here seems to be you. What I said was in reply to what the Serb members of this forum said…that they needed the planes for SPECIFICALLY that purpose.

It has a datalink… fit it with two R-27ET1s (60km range) and four R-73s and transmit the coordinates of the enemy fighters via datalink… it can fly low and fast and attack an enemy from the side or from behind.It can also be used for ground attack with LGB and laser guided missiles as well as TV guided bombs and missiles.

And you’r calling ME an “idiot”?? A Serb MiG-29UB is going to be able to do all this?? 1 of them in existance??

I don;t think there’s a need for me to explain why that is ridiculous.

The western definition of war criminal is “Serbian”. Anyone who held a military position of command during the last decade is considered a war criminal… that would have an effect on Serbias military that pretty much would equate to Stalins pre WWII purge… and for what? The entertainment of the west? Again can understand why you’d like that but what is in it for Serbia?

Yes I suppose you’r right…I mean yeah sure they killed and ethnically cleasned millions…but look at it from their prespective…whats in it for them?

Whats in it for them…is opening up talks to integration…and actual integraton. That…or Radical Party and Mother Russia.

Whichever one floats their boat…it makes no difference to me.

But as I said the decision to do such silly things isn’t a military or technical decision…its a political one…because other than Mother Russia they don’t have much of an alternative for anything else.

I’d say the alternative is scarp the junk…open up to NATO…and look at acquiring planes in the future from them. But…I suppose I don’t have “their best interests at heart”…becasue I tell them that Su-30s and PAK-FAs are ficticious, and thinking of wars with neighbours again is suicide.

You do of course realise that a margionalised Serbia with the Radicals in power and buddy-buddy with Mother Russia…would be in Albania’s best interests. So why would I be here advocating not to do that??? I know…I’m an “idiot”.

Rubbish. The western governments have expended a lot of energy in painting the Serbs as the bad guys. Unless oil is found in Serbia, what reason would they have for expending a little more energy to change that public opinion? The sale of 30 rusted F-16s wouldn’t do it. They’ll stack em out in the bone yards three layers thick if they have to.

Yes…evil western governments and their negative media coverage. Thats the problem.

Yes, arch rivals… two countries with nothing in common… that loathe each other are forced together because they are so evil they won’t do as the west tells them. Don’t they know the West won the cold war and is therefore right and perfect and just and anything it does (even if in self interest) must be not only obeyed but also never questioned… yeah… you know where its at bro.

Russia and Serbia are arch ricals?? You lost me a while back Garry…

There you go thinking again… I am telling you that is a mistake… unless you actually want to change a bit and actually think from the perspective of the Serbs rather than for yourself.

To quote you…”who cares what you think”

Lots of ‘merican kids made the same mistake as you a while back… the russians are over… the plane that replaces the Flanker will be the F-16… if we let them. They don’t need to waste money developing new weapons… they can just have NATO handmedowns. They wont be able to afford to design anything decent by them selves ever again… they’ll just eventually join the EU and NATO and sit up the back at meetings pretending they still have power while Europe solves all their problems for them… and we can see how that has worked out…

Ok… :rolleyes: