KapedaniThis time is not Venik but the Russian Air Force Chief comander.
Hardly more reliable than Venik really 🙂
Check that under certain flight modes an old P-40 radars can detect the F-117, check that a Russian named Ufimtsev developed the priciples of stealth and an old russian SAM shot down the F-117, you are defending your claims thinking the Russians are unaware of the stealth principles.
Out of some 450 heavy SAMs the Serbs launched…2 hit. Impressive…no?? F-117s were operating heavily in places like Belgrade where the majority of the Serbian SAMs were concentrated. Out of hundreds if not thousands of missions flown by these stalth aircraft…99% of cases they were never even detected.
If he was right, then B-2s would have been downed as well
You’r forgeting SOC…they did 🙂
in fact he claimed at least 2 more F-117 were damaged yes he claims the same thing that Venik
First of all…NATO admits that one other F-117 was indeed hit and damaged. There was no third one however…it actually seems to me the RuAF Chief has been reading Venik’s webiste. Venik and then all the rest of the like-minded propagandists kept repeating the story of a third F-117 beasue the damage of a third one was reported in some US aviation magazine. And if one does a BIT of research…as people have told you HERE…that particular aircraft was a test aircraft operating in the US…so the acciednt happened in the US. But only becasue it happened at the same time as the war…Venik automatically assumed it was in Serbia.
The more you keep repeating it…the more ridiculous it makes you look.
Only claims are not enough
You say claims are not enough…nd yet you keep quoting Krasnaya Zvezda or brazd…which only provide clams…and no details to go with them. So your logic makes very little sense.
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As I said earlier…why don’t you REALLY ask Syrians about what THEY claim for losses. Don’t throw BS around from Krasnaya Zvezda or things said 25 years ago. As I already told you…OTHER Syrian sources exist…people have written books on this in Syria as well…and as I said MOST of Israel’s claims about Syrian losses…are actually ADMITTED by Syria. You keep ignoring this aspect!! If you add up all the Syrian losses…from what they ADMITT to losing in air-combat…to what they ADMITT to losing to SAMs…to what they ADMITT to losing to fracticide…plus helicopters…and you DO end up with a number that is probably higher than 80 aircraft.
As for as Syrian claims for Israeli aircraft shot down…as I already said…its about 17 REAL claims…despite what you keep saying BS from Krasnaya Zvezda and so forth. Syrians don’t claim any such thing…they claim about 17…of which only about 3-4 can be confirmed in any way.
And don’t accuse others of bias…I certainly have no pro-Israeli bias…I assure you that…I do however have an anti-ignorance bias.
KapedaniKAPEDANI
I do not agree with your statement, the Syrian claims are as importat as the Israeli claims , my personal opinionis without official Syrian claims is hard to prove even the Israeli claims.
If you have 80 pictures of the Syrian aircraft shot down well you prove your case even without the Syrian claims, nevertheless we have not all the 80 pictures, any logic is consider the proven and really confirmed evidence, personally i can quote easily DeAgostini`s World aircraft video collection chapter 13 titled “Israeli Air Power in Action” as hard evidence to at least 5 air to air kills from the Bekka Valley Air battle to prove the Israeli claims for at least 5 Syrian aircraft shot down by Israeli F-15 and F-16s, here in this Forum i have seen 2 pictures of wreckages from the Bekka Valley to prove the Israeli claims, from that time i have only seen a picture of a Kfir C2 kill shot down over Lebanon.
To tell you the truth i would like to see more pictures by either side to prove that over inflated scores both claim, the Syrian claimed at least 30 Israeli aircraft as shot down, the Israelies claimed at least 80 Syrian aircraft as shot down, at to what i have read Syria only acknowledged around 24 fighter aircraft as lost, Israel claims very few only 2 israeli aircraft shot down, if you know math you know that is equal to a minimun of 2 Israeli aircraft lost and a max of 30 Israeli aircraft shot down and the Syrian losses would be a minimun of 24 Syrian aircraft lost and a max of 80 Syrian aircraft shot down that is what shoul be taken as a more less reliable score, Krasnaya Zveda said the Syrians claimed 65 Israeli aircraft shot down though.
First…who cares what Krasnaya Zvezda said?? So what if they said it?? Rusians also said Sebs shot down 130 NATO planes. One can say whatever one wants…
Second…you DON’T need pictures to prove an aircraft was shot down. How would the Israelis show pictures of a Syrian aircraft which fell in Syrian or Lebanese territory where they had no access to it?? Again the key here being…Syrian controlled territory. 100% of Israeli losses would have fallen there as well…so if the Syrians had indeed shot down more than 3 planes they have shown…they shoul dhave little trouble producing perhaps pictures of at leats 1-2 more. They can’t. Israel can’t becasue the planes didn’t fall in its territory. But reagrdless…you DON’T need pictures to prove an aircraft was shot down. Syrians NEVER claimed they lost 24 aircraft or anything of the sort…in fact MAJORITY of their losses correspond pretty well with Israeli claims of their losses…becasue even the Syrians couldn’t hide such massive losses.
KapedaniKapedani
Can you tell me in what press release? when? and where? who reported the fact the Syrians addmitted that close to 64 Syrian aircraft were lost?
what was the score that they addmitted 64:0? ,
Don’t put words in my mouth…I didn’t say nor 64 nor 64:0. Read what I said…I saud about 57-60…where did you get 64?? and I didn’t say they didn’t CLAIM they shot down Israeli aircraft.
As far as I know Syria’s CLAIMs for air-air are actually about 17 Israeli aircraft…after they finally dropped a lot of their claims. This would include about 12 MiG-23 kills and about 5 MiG-21 kills. Of these I’d say about 4-5 MAY be true or resulting in damaged aircract…say one F-15 damaged by MiG-21s (or it may have been two)…2 drones shot down by MiG-23s and maybe one more aircraft damaged by MiG-23s possibly.
I wouldn’t be the right person to ask “what press releases” bla bla bla…I don’t think any serious researcher is going to base these things on Syrian press releases…but there are OTHER sources for this matter even within Syria…as a number of books obviously have been written by Syrian officers on the events…where such things come out.
You forgote one thing though. Syria admitede that at least 15-20 where shot down by their own Airdefence.
I think those numbers are not included in the number I gave above. And I’m not sure if it truly is 15-20…I think it was much lower than that. I know 3 Su-17s were destroyed by cluster bombs dropped from a fourth one flying above them…in a bad case of fracticide…and probably some others but to be frank I think you’r confusing with 1973…in 1980 I’m certain it wasn’t anywhere near that high. As was said…the AD was rendered virtually inefective even before Syrian fighters started flying there in any numbers.
The Lebanese people there and the own troops watched it and could touch the wreckages and were collecting the jumped pilots. All this was just one hour by car from Damascus. At the ABs the people will not notice, when a single fighter did not return, but several ones are not to hide. The wounded pilots were carried to hospitals and the dead-ones were buried. Such a scope of desaster could not be prevented ad hoc from surfacing in a country like Syria even. So the best thing you can do is to admitt at least a number of losses and balance those by counter claims. Non will ask for real numbers, because the people there are accustomed to such behavior. When it comes to truth or national honor a Syrian will not hesitate to choose the later and not there only as Flogger shows!
Right…these things can’t be hidden very easily even in Syria…and from what I can see their admittance to losses seems to be FAIRLY accurate…as in I think they admitted pretty much to all their real losses. Israeli claims of 80+ in the air…are probably exagerated a bit…I think everyone probably agrees to this…and I’m not saying they did it on purpose as Flogger will claim…but simply becasue many such engagements the Israeli pilots thought ended in a kill…may not have but may have been damaged aircraft…or BVR engagaements where the plane may not really have been shot down…or just wrong pilot accounts. It was very hgih…but probably not 80…probably in the 50s and 60s.
KapedaniWow…THIS is what you guys are talking about?? It looks to me to be a cheap single-man test ekranoplan…one of a dime-a-dozen such types you can find in Russia. Looks ridiculous that people are talking about itin such terms…and even more ridiculous that Iran claims this thing is a “super modern stealthy”…whatever.
Whats so stealthy about it?? I see no stealthy feaures on this at all…especially not with a big exposed uncovered prop engine on top…lol
Armament?? Thsi thing is lucky it can carry a single guy in it…maybe the guy will carry an AK-47 in it it destroy a ship.
Here you have a list of all WIG aircraft developed….
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/html/main.php?open=listallcraft&code=0
This Iranian thing looks like a pretty dime-a-dozen thing some guy made in the back of his garage…
KapedaniFlogger I don’t understand any part of your rant?? Do you have a point to make?? And if you do…how exactly are you achieving this??
You keep repeating…Syria said this…Russians said this. Period…therefore you have showed to us that Israel or US MUST have lost more since these other guys are CLAIMING more.
And then you’r saying…west is lying because they don’t have pictures for all the aircraft they claim shot down.
Your argument is kind of ridiculous if you’r saying the west is lying because of lack of pictures..and to prove it you’r giginv us CLAIMS by Russian or Syrian sources…something with FAR LESS to back it up.
Flogger….to make things clear to you…Syria ADMITTS to about 80% of those losses Israel claims to have shot down. They ADMITT to them. From what I’v read…they admit to about 57-60 or so fixed-wing aircraft losse sand several helicopters. So…if the Syrians ADMITT to most of these losses….and they correspond pretty well with Israeli claims…then HOW can you say there’s “NO EVIDENCE” because there’s no pictures of all these wrecks?? Because YOU haven’t seen the pictures of the wrecks??
No side’s claims are ever 100% correct. Israei aircraft may have damaged other Syrian aircraft with missile shots…thought they shot down the aircrafts but in fact some of them may have only been damaged and made it back to base…for example.
The same can be said of the Syrians. For example it is known one F-15 took an R-60 missile up one of its engines from a MiG-21. The Syrian pilot might have reported that as a kill…even though the Israeli plane was only damaged and made it back.
BUT….when 80% of your losses are confirmed by the other side as well….then you’r pretty trustworthy. If 1% of your losses are confirmed by the other side…and you have ZERO evidence to back any of your claims up…then you’r in deep shi*t.
Syria can provide evidence of 1-2 F-4s, one Kfir, one A-4 and a couple of helicopters. Most of these losses were already either directly confirmed or indirectly confirmed by Israel years ago as well. So no secret…
The same with Iraq or Serbia. YOu keep saying…but Iraq and Serbia claim so and so….or the better one…”I have evidence from Iraqi and Serbian TV”…What evidence??? Some guy on Iraqi or Serbian TV going “today we shot down 135 of Satan’s aircraft!”….and that’s evidence?? Some idiot on TV showing a fuel tank and saying “This is a Tornado!” That’s your evidence??
Iraq on the first day of the 91 Gulf War claimed about 130 kills on that first night. 90% of them were decoys thrown by the US to do just that…make the Iraqi AD respond. The Iraqis realized pretty quickly what they had done was shoot down a bunch of decoys and thus make themselves good targets….and they didn’t do it again.
But are you going to come now and tell us….”I heard on Iraqi TV they shot down 130 planes on the first night alone!”??? I think you will…now that I told you.
As for Serbia….well we’r not even going to get into that…lol…that was a comedy show with no parallels.
There are some things that CAN be argued….for example WHAT shot down the aircraft. Yes its POSSIBLE that SOME Coaltion aircraft may have been shot down by Iraqi fighters. There’s NOTHING to back that up…no Iraqi pilot has come forward to say so since 2003. But it makes no difference. The Coalition didn’t lie about its losses….regardless if it knows for sure what shot down what type. Some are still unknown…and some may have been attributed to the wrong weapon. But that’s an entirely different argument from saying….”they’r lying!”. They’r not lying….sometimes they don’t know and can’t know.
There are SOME things that can be argued…like a lot of that stuff from ACIG I would say. Tom gets the idea to attribute 2 MiG-29 losses to Israeli F-15 in 2001…writes an article with all the possible minute details you could want to know….and what is this all based on?? I have no idea…and neither does he…since neither side claims anything of the sort happened…none of the other parties which should have noticed such an event claim it happened (like NATO radars for example)…all the details about it happening are wrong…so I think its an invented event and Tom got too easily carried away by some cheesy Babka article or something. I don’t know…but such a thing could be argued…MAY not be true (or certainly isn’t). Or the same can be said for say 80% of the Iranian claims Tom has in his books….which are based on nothing more than Iranian claims and many can be disproven by Iraqi claims ( no offense to Tom…he does a great job overall…but he gets too easily carried away by simple claims by Iranians without really hearing out the other side). Or for example when the ACIG people jumped on board and IMMEDIATELY claimed the F-15E shot down in 2003 was done by an abandoned Stinger. HOW they came up with that….no one has any idea…they just did. Turns out it was probably an Iraqi AAA…
…but these are not claims of governments…and certainly by no stretch of the imagination FINAL claims. They’r claims of individuals…and individuals or “news agencies” claims….aren’t claims at all. Yes all sides have propaganda…but its one thing to have CNN say one day this and this happened…and then a few hours later a different more accurate story comes on…that’s something generally caused by lack of information and poor jounnalism…but evenrtually the story gets straightened out. Its another thing to have a government controlled news agency say with certainty this and this happened…and show some ridiculous fuel tank or unexploded bomb or some other such ridiculous thing on TV to back up their claims and so forth. That’s a DELIBERATE misinformation campaign…generally aimed at their own people who can’t know better because they don’t have access to anything better.
I don’t know if you can understand the difference….from what you’v written in the past it seems you can’t.
So if 80% of my claims are backed up by the other’s sides claims as well…that’s damn good. If 1% of my claims are backed up…then you’r probably lying. You understand??
KapedaniIt is interesting to see you have great faith in NATO`s press releases and little in Serbia`s Why?
For very obvious reasons…
Am i the only Serb here who realises(sincle long time ago) that only 2 airplanes were shot down?
Not just here….everythere I think…
Id like to also add that the Radar towers that you destoryed is not true beacuse radars and microves use the same kind of technolgy and they use micove waves during 99 serbia tured on microve ovens and nato thought it was a radar the real thing when they launched a 750000 dollar missile and destroyed 75 dollar oven so the count for radar towers is a lower.
That a pretty expensive microwave if it cost you 75 dollars….I think you’r the one who got ripped off in that one….
I am of the opinon that our Mig-29s and Air defence should have performed the mission together.By that i mean Mig-29s taking off and flying low over the ground while during that time as many SAMs as possible being launched at NATO airplanes.While NATO airplanes would be busy avoiding the SAMs,Mig-29s would pull up in a steep climb(as they performed in the engagements during the war) and try to aquire the NATO airplanes with their R-73s.As soon as they launch the missiles they would return to different airfields. Yes,this plan would be more risky for radar and SAM crews,but if some sucess was to be achieved,it had to be risked.Sending Mig-29s without any Air defence support and non-functional radars was a nonsence.
And get hit in the as*s by one of their own SAMs…which BTW…I think is what happened in a couple of cases.
That’s funny, I was under the impression that it was the Serbian’s decision to finally come out and tell his story to the media.
Your obviously wrong…NATO had been suppressing the story…thata nd the story of many others.
KapedaniWell there you go!!…as I’v said in the past…Serbia needs to make you defense minister Kobra…
KapedaniUgh….how is it possible that Venik’s BS still circulates the internet?? How is it possible that people STILL come around and say…”look what I found…proof of an A-10 downed…it must have been a MiG-29 then!”
Its very funny…of an entire A-10 shot down…all they could display was an engine necelle. I suppose thats all that survived out of the aircrfat…the engines, the gun, the armoured bathtub…they all evaporated in midair.
Who said that Serbian AD in 1999 wasnt fully operational?AD radars and SAMs were in very good condition.It was the airforce and Migs that got poor maintenance.Serbian SAMs (SA-6 and SA-3)got upgraded before the 1999.
I say Serbia’s AD wasn’t fully operational 🙂 How many Sa-6 batteries were even able to deploy in the field…ahd operational radars for them and so forth?? 2 I think out of all of the rest. I don’t know what this “upgrade” everyone keeps throwing around that supposedly happened was…or whether it was applied to 1 or 2 or 3 battiers…or all…or none at all. A lot of speculation with nothing to back up.
Why is it that only the MiGs got poor maintanacne while the rest of the AD network was in tip-top shape??
If Iraq’s AD was fully operational and had 10 years experience why didnt they shoot any airplane down then(i’m talking about the missiles and not the AA guns)?
Their SAMs got plenty of kills…not to mention the number of aircraft hit by SAMs or other systems and damaged…in one month it was about 100 aircraft actually hit by their AD system, and some 38 downed (with more possibly written off or seriously damaged). How does that compare with 2 in 3 months for Serbia?? Of course there are MANY factors that lead to this…as was mentioned for example Coalition aircraft flying low altitude in high threat areas where they suffered heavy losses…vs Coalition aircraft flying medium altitude and deploying PGMs…and many other factors as well such as Iraqi tacticks and info available to Coalition about them and ECM advances of course.
But in the end I don’t see the point of this discussion on this issue…Serbia’s AD was not very good regardless and performed very poorly. You think otherwise??
And yes its POSSIBLE that 2-3 kills may have been made by Iraqi MiGs…but that doesn’t change anything in the overall picture.
KapedaniBuy whatever you want….throw some breadcrumbs our way though 😉
KapedaniKependi also i have never seen a shot down aircraft for over 50 years by Albania. Plus i read the only aircraft flying in albaian air force is a An-2.
Thats a great response to the issue at hand…as always.
The difference between Iraq in 91 and Serbia in 99 I would say would be mainly the fact that Iraq’s AD was fully operational and experienced with 10 years of combat…
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The Russian MiG-29 kills are all unconfirmed…I don’t think there is any Russian official source claiming any of these…just claims by individuals. And some of them are a little unbeliavable…considering for example that Moldavia had about 2 MiG-29 pilots to go around at the time (and yet 4 were shot down??…and one more supposedly by Sa-3 I think)
Only the Eritrean kills can be somewhat confirmed…and the single Cuban kill.
Of course I’m not saying this has anything to do with the quality of the MiG-29…as I agree 100% with what you guys have said about the users of these aircraft, tacticks and so forth…but thats what real war is like…its not about who has the best aircraft necessarely.
KapedaniHow is it possible that some 7 years fater the war…the propaganda and imagination of Venik and friends…is STILL alive on the internet?
7 years later and the Serbs still have ZERO to back up any of their claims.
Eveything else aside…is ANY other aircraft was shot down over Serbia…would the wreckgae or ANY part of these aircraft have been made available, been found and so forth…7 years later?? Would any Serbian pilot or AD officer come forward and talked about how he bravely shot down 2 F-15 Eagles with his SA-6 unit (as Venik has a funny little story on his website)??? Or better yet…would 7 years later have any Serbian polits come forward to retell the brilliantly carried out and brave raid on Rinas Airport where 24 Apaches were destroyed by Serbian aircraft??? Or 7 years later the names of those brave Serbian pilots who shot down F-117s and F-15s and F-16s…and last but not least 3 Albanian F-7s…would have been released maybe??
The level of propaganda from the Serbian side was beyound believeable…
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11 Serb Mig-29s were lost…period…this is admitted BY THEM THEMSELVES. I don’t see the poit in this argument anymore. YES they can be confirmed all by serial number.
No MiG-29 in Serbia ever scored anything on anyone…no Serb pilot claims any missiles were ever fired to begin with.
And then of course to back up the claims…the show pictures of an A-10 dropping a flare…an F-15 dumping fuel…a Torando fuel tank and so forth. I’m sure if the Tornado fuel tank is there in the middle of a village…then the rest of the plance can’t be too far away?? Right?? So lets see it.
So how in the world do some of you come up with such fantasy??? 8 MiG-29 kills on F-15s?? When are any of these supposed to have happened?? I don’t think 8 F-15s have ever been lost in combat in total.
The MiG-29’s victories…the only ones confirmed so far…are probably 4-5 in Eritrea against MiG-21s and MiG-23s…with about 6-7 being lost to Su-27s.
PS: As for “decoys” and so forth as far ground equipent…they’r not “decoys” if they have people in them…;)
KapedaniYou forgot one option…
none of the above…because its riduclous.
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Here’s a more realistic question on what happens:
1) Kosova’s independance is approved by UN. Serbian population votes on a referendum not to let kosova secede; nobody gives a shi*t. (Obviously not this easy, but work with me). What does America do?
a) Recognize Kosova’s independence before UN even aproves it
b) Recoginize Kosova’s independence when UN aproves it
c) Recognize Kosova’s independence after UN aproves it
2) Kosova’s independance is approved by UN. Serbian population votes on a referendum not to let kosova secede; nobody gives a shi*t. (Obviously not this easy, but work with me). Montenegro follows suit and declares independence. Serbian population votes on a referendum not to let Montenegro secede; nobody gives a shi*t. What does America do?
…same options apply but with the word Kosova replaced with Montenegro…
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I don’t know if any of you realise how ridiculous you all sound…but keep up the good work…its pretty funny stuff. Good day…gentleman
KapedaniUgh…yeah great job Albanian Eagle…you and Slobo are quite a team.
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Now back to this discussion…10 million euros for 5 MiG-29s…I don’t know how much that would go to make them airworthy again…depends on the situation they are in now.
KapedaniSince Albania had only 12 J-7 in its inventory and later lost two of them , I have the impression we have seen by now pics of every J-7 left in the country. In terms of modelling those ac are rather monotonous. They are all painted in the whitish camo with only the numbers changing. Howewer the following bad quality pic depicts an exemplary with seemingly the cocpit frames painted in dark green.
I think there’s pics of only about 5 of them actually…there’s pictures where several can be seen but their serials can’t be seen…so maybe.
This new paint on the cockpit, nose and tail rudder must be very recent…since it doesn’t appear in pictures of this same 0207 aircraft taken a few years eariler (I think the latest of this one is from 1999…and this one is from 2005). BTW it is in one of the hardened shelters in Rinas…and you can see an engine next to it…
KapedaniAnd also do u think the goverment is going to give out loud that thay shot down one of those i only know this beacuse my uncle was posted near the shotdown area and soldiers told him that american stealth b-2 bomber was shot down and also not even america or the english say what they have shot down all maybe shot down but not what they have lost.
Guys…he got you there. Slobo scores again with his elequancy and detailed knowledge…
There’s nothing you guys can say…his uncle told him…period. Accept the fact that NATO lost…
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