Tmor re your links to the Joust Jpegs

Sorry, i don’t understand… Could you reformulate it please ? 😮

Reading it made it sound as though Rafale was the only unstable aircraft that required a FBW FCS to remain in the air, however, as though the F-16 and Gripen had never happened. It also makes it sound like the most unstable aircraft in the world.

“Reading it made it sound as though Typhoon was the only unstable aircraft that required a FBW FCS to remain in the air, however, as though the F-16 and Mirage 2000 had never happened. It also makes it sound like the most unstable aircraft in the world.”
I’m talking of an article written by Jon Lake (in 1997 or sooner).
It’s just a matter of how you feel it.
The US Navy pilot for sure knows about Gripen, F-16, M2000 and others.;)

I don’t know what Fred flew in the US Navy, but would be MOST interested to know if it was the F/A-18, because he really did seem impressed by the Rafale.

ROFLMAO.
Is this so painful, each time a foreign pilot praises Rafale ? 😀

Surely not, i’ve seen a russian brochure indicating the target RCS for each radar (front and rear).

In France, it’s not the case, we have no idea of what’s the target’s RCS (this may be 1sqm as well as 10sqm, we really don’t know). Detection range are also probabilistic, and this could be 180km with 10% probability or 70km with 99% probability. This is why I… 😀 😉
Fact is that 100km is for look-down mode.
http://www.indiadefence.com/Gorshkovdeal.htm

The Radar is multi-mode phased array RBE2. Range is 100 kilometres even in look-down mode and significantly greater in look-level and look-up modes. Tracking parameters are comparable and at least four targets can be engaged simultaneously.

I want to talk about JOUST.
Through the years, i’ve read about it several time.
In 2003, i found an interesting link about JOUST. I’ve printed it, and now the link is down, i’m happy to have it to show you :
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/9342/Joust1.jpg
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/5269/Joust2.jpg
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/858/Joust3.jpg
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/8757/Joust4.jpg
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/2626/Joust5.jpg
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/7283/Joust6.jpg
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/9606/Joust7.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9590/joust85km.jpg
This document explain what was the purpose of JOUST.

But one day, on another forum, someone posted the following text. I immediatly decided to keep a copy of it on my hard drive. As it wasn’t written in english, the man used the google translation tool, and this is the result :

JOUST

The JOUST is a simulator of air-air fights of long reach multiusenario from the DERA (present QinetiQ) that was used to help applications of the program Meteor.

The JOUST is a capable system of modelar fights air to long distance (BVR – Beyond Visual Grinds) realistic with human control and digital modeling using simulation of high resolution.

They are 12 stations (now added of four simulators of the Eurofighter), more 3 stations of command to generate aim, missiles BE, radars and airships AWACS.

More of 60 evaluations were driven from the decade of 90 by pilots from the RAF and RN during 6 years. Each evaluation had lasted two to four weeks. The battles were 4×4 and also hears participation of others countries.

The JOUST is used for researches of battle to short distance and to long distances, development of tactics, equipment news use doctrine (Rafale by example), training, studies of interface man-machine and study of settings.

The JOUST is capable of simulating workings of radar, RCS of airships, datalink JTIDS to change of information, electronic countermeasures and its effect in the sensors. Is able to simulate new sensors as an IRST and situations of environment that confuse to deteccao infravermelha. The given saints melted with screen Kalman and shown in a screen of vision of God.

The system is capable of generate airships controlled digital as package of bombardeiros flying bass. The battle can be helped by an AEW modelado or of human control for the two sides.

They were studied the factors that they do a hunting over another in the arena BVR, as fuselagem, aerodynamics, propulsao, avionicos and performance of weapons. You quiz they were them a success for show like a weapons/airship systems combination functions and relate with the battle BVR.

All of the aspects of the study about the battle BVR they were grouped in the following categories:
– Studies of effectiveness to evaluate performance of you vary airships and weapons, in you vary task
– Researches in the huntings performance areas (fuselagem, weapons, avionicos and sensors) to help to direct researches for studies of better option.
– Evaluate the options of modernizacao of airships
– Analyzes and formulation of tactics BVR, present and future.

The studies were focado in the following areas:
– Battle effectiveness Studies in air settings of superiority and air defense
– Studies of Integration of avionicos of huntings and studies of balanceamento of systems
– Analyzes battle tactics formulation BVR for huntings, sensors and weapons (present and future)

The studies concentrated in the Eurofighter. The opponents were the Mig-29, Su-27 and derived (Su-35). They were modelados vary options of radar, avionicos and weapons. The settings varied since generic air defense with convoy of bombardeiros, keeps pure air superiority (with or without AEW of each side).

Also it was quizzed to study option of hunting more cheap with or without systems got worse like IRST, DASS and JTIDS/MIDS.

The future radar AESA of the Eurofighter also was quizzed, with multiple and unique configuration of antenna to compare long reach cover.

=======================================================================

In May of 1993 was initiated studies of the applications of the program Meteor that they were evaluated to will be applied in the program Eurofighter. They were evaluated weaknesses and points fortresses of the project, as configurations of propellant. They were carried out more three evaluations in the two years to quiz proposals. The facts were used to them determine the final specifications. The facts also influenced the program ASRAAM.

The majority of the battles studied showed that they would be between 20-50km. Below 12-20km will be inside the visual reach. The application was reach maximum well beyond 100km (> 150km) and more more lineal profile speed, with in the-escape zone (NEZ) of 20-80km that would be factor critic in the arena BVR.

The performance was similar to the AIM-54 Phoenix with agility of the ASRAAM. The motor solido of double impulse was considerado before of the ramjet, but nao would fill the applications.

The very demanding application caused to adoption of propulsao ramjet to reach the speed, reach and manobrabilidade terminal. The limitation was to interface with the Eurofigther and ejetor embutido.

An of the applications of the program BVRAAM was furtive launching, with the enemy pilot receiving alerts most minimum that the missile was shot, reducing the evasive opportunity of action; sufficient energy to pursue and destroy very agile aim; strong performance in electronic environment of war; capacity of engajar, shoot and desengajar quick to increase the survival.

The simulations showed that a hunting armed with an assets radar air-air missile of long reach would try shoot the missile and flee quick. The aim is able to against-attack with another missile BVR and try evade losing altitude and leading missile for denser atmosphere. If sobe quick, the missile in pursuit will have difficulty in go up new to accompany.

You had him also showed that the battle would be of shots BVR multiple, with opponents shooting and fleeing or evading, always outside of the visual reach. The perdedor generally was what lost first altitude, or flew subsonico and stayed herself options, stayed without weapons or fuel and fled.

The objective of the experiment passed be it to superacao of the R-77 that was much most better that AMRAAM in energy.

The simulation resulted us applications of the BVRAAM that should arm the Eurofighter British to obtain superiority to 2030. The threat they were hunts others with equivalent missile. The threat key was the Russian missile Vympel R-77 (AA-12 Adder) and future variantes.

The capacity BVR intial of the program Eurofighter rotated around the AMRAAM. The Eurofighter did not have furtividade to exceed the Su-27 armed with the R-77. The answer would be able to be missile of bigger reach than the AMRAAM.

=======================================================================

To USAF would use to furtividade of the F/A-22 to approach and flee without to be bothered and by this the F/A-22 has less need of a missile of long reach. The F/A-22 finished defined the difference of operation between Europeans and U.S.A.

The results of the simulations of the Eurofighter equipped with the Meteor were compared with others hunts. The adversary was the Su-27 modernized (equivalent to the Su-35) equipped with THE-10 or R-77 (given more worse) he had the following results:

The hunts Reason of the Change (%)
F/A-22：90% （AIM-120）
EF2000：82-75% （Meteor-class BVRAAM）
F-15F：60%（AIM-120）
F-15E：55%（AIM-120）
F-15C：43%（AIM-120）
Rafale：50% （MICA）
F-18E：45-25% （AIM-120）
Gripen：40% （AIM-120）
M-2000-5：35% （MICA）
Tornado F3：30% （AIM-120）
F-18C：21% （AIM-120）
F-16C：21% （AIM-120）

The chance of a conventional airship survive to a furtive hunting is missing of 10% (F/A-22 against Su-27). The Eurofighter has good results by also have a small one RCS in the quadrant frontal that is the more important in the battle BVR and use the missile Meteor in the simulation.

Obs: THE F-15F was a proposal of F-15 with systems advanced. All of the western huntings they used the AMRAAM with exception of the Rafale French that they use the MICA.

The air-air missiles technology is able to defined the depth from the air battle. Who it has the most greatest reach controls the commitment.

=======================================================================

In a battle simulated in 1996, with four F-15 armed with AIM-120 against others four F-15 simulating Mig-29 armed with R-27 and R-73, the pilots blue did not see the enemy and neither the wing. Did not they maneuver to more of 3g’s and never they flew invertidos.

The envelope of battle to short distances and long distances they were separate. In a simulation in the JOUST in 1996 showed that an aim to more of 40km was free to maneuver. Any missile can be avoided in the maximum reach.

With the present missiles air-air the commitment will be between 15-40km. Missiles of short reach are more more lethal to less than 8km. Between 8-15km the aim still can avoid the approximate battle.

The Meteor will have long reach and more energy to long distances. The objective is increase to NEZ. The datalink of two roads will be used to inform that the missile found the aim.

The ASRAAM follows similar tactics upon be an option more cockroach against aim still beyond the visual reach.

A hunting should have capacity multi-aim. Datalincar several missiles at the same time also is desirable. If a hunting has avionicos upper as assignment of aim by third or datalink, this requer the formulation of tactics. Also requer good coordination and discipline of formation.

The general tactics depend on each plataforma. An air battle between opponents equipped with missiles of long reach with active radar is characterized by you vary offensive actions, followed by maneuvers defensives. The meeting is followed with a serie of change of missiles (himself not houver defeats before). The upper combination defeats, knocking down the enemy or foge for lack of weapon or fuel.

The altitude and speed are important for the huntings and missiles air-air. The missiles are more effective against aim flying high or the decrease speed. Also it is more dependable fly Pass and quick. The dilemma is seek the combination of altitude, speed and geometry of meeting to maximize the own forces and minimize the of the enemy.

In case of of an airship with big energy of agility/manobrabilidade but little autonomy to fight, the pilot can choose a flight of short duration and big energy or he prolong the fight flying bass and with little energy. Flying bass the pilot stayed in the defensive, but with similar duration of battle to of fight of big energy.

He have a better missile he generates less demand of the pilot. In approximate battles, to bigger task he went he maintain the conscience from the situation.

The studies of the JOUST determined some carateristicas important things of a modern airship of hunting:

– Agility of energy.
The excess of power or SEP is vital so much in the dogfight as much as in the arena BVR. This already it was perceived in the Vietnam when the huntings obtained maneuver to avoid the missiles. A hunter should be good to accelerate in straight line and go up in the SEP of great profile.

– Manobrabilidade of energy.
It is the capacity of maintain curves without a lot loss of energy

– Persistence of battle.
　It is the quantity of energy and weapons. Also it signifies maintain speed without use the powders-combustor

– Furtividade or RCS.
　Helps in the against-deteccao and contramedidas electronic

– Integration of Sensors
　To facilitate to disponibilizacao of information and conscience from the situation

– Systems of weapons.
The weaknesses and strong points should be acquaintances to exploit the weapons friends and enemy.

This text really surprised me when i read it. I don’t know where it comes from, but it contains interesting details.

I’m not expecting people to believe it, but according to it, the Typhoon able to kill 4 flankers was in fact armed with Meteor (or S-225).:eek:

I don’t know if it’s true, but i think it’s worth sharing…

60°/s is sometimes given.

Can I please participate in the debate?:D :rolleyes: 😀

Why not ? 😉

Nick76 : lol 😀

On a serious note, what is the above against, in terms of RCS?

Standard fighter sized… 5sqm ? We never know…
But if 172km is the detection range, 140 km may be the tracking range. My point was to tell you that it’s still a good A-A radar. The RDY on M2000-5F already gives full satisfaction.

It’s funny how you depict France… I have the feeling that people ask questions so as to get answers to fuel their impressions about the country. 😀
1) We’re only average citizen. We don’t know why everything 😉 .
2) RDY detect at up to 150km (80N.m), and RDY-2 see 15% farther : 172km.
It’s already a good detection range. What’s the problem ? :rolleyes:
8 target tracked, but at least 20 detected (my source gives 36 detected).
source : “Le monde de l’aviation” n°8, january 1999, by Jean-Marc Tangy)

Then, why do people avoid talking about the 45,61% MAC instability ?:confused:

Thanks a lot, KKM57P and Satorian. 😉