Rii[ATTACH=CONFIG]220085[/ATTACH]
RiiAnything which bridles the interventionist impulse is undoubtedly a good thing.
RiiIt is simply impossible that France will go to war with any country that equips 5th Gen fighters in the foreseeable future.
Well there’s England, but Rafale can handle F-35. I’d be more worried about the Tiffys.
RiiThe blue M346 is stunning also.
RiiThey also had a very close relationship with one of the most Corrupt and Evil Countries on the Planet! (i.e. USSR)
And today they have a fairly cosy relationship with Iran, so why are you so keen to give them F-35? :rolleyes:
But thanks for reminding everyone here that it was the United States that rejected India in the past, not the other way around. It’s a good reminder of why India should avoid placing itself in a position of dependency on the United States, or anyone else for that matter, and thus serves to confirm the wisdom of India’s current practice of diversified investments trending towards self-sufficiency as manifested in Tejas, MMRCA, FGFA, and so forth.
RiiThe L-15 looks better, but it is haunted by an ugly rudder.
It’s more the nose that I don’t like…
RiiJH-7 is obsolete – basically a Tornado level aircraft with underpowered engines.
What does ‘obsolete’ mean in this context? JH-7 fulfils a valuable role for China and will continue to do so for decades.
The Chinese probably won’t buy many J-10/-15/-16 post 2020.
Won’t they? Looking at Chinese practice to date and their enormous stock of, as you put it, obsolete inventory, I hardly expect China to cease production of 4th generation aircraft the moment J-20/J-31 come online. I expect China will be pumping out 4th gen aircraft till 2025.
Similar story with Russia: Su-35 will wrap by 2020 to be replaced by T-50, but Su-34 won’t — we have already heard plans for Su-34M by 2020.
It has 2 5th gen aircraft flown as prototypes. India has none.
I don’t think that’s fair. FGFA production will follow rapidly from T-50, India is preparing for it even now, and has dropped plans for e.g. dual seat modification so as to speed the process. Given that the T-50 program seems ahead of J-20, I wouldn’t expect FGFA to lag J-20 by much.
Tejas Mk 1 has not entered service, and Tejas Mk 2 has not even flown. Rafale deal has not even been signed.
First Mk. 2 prototype is due to fly next year. As for Rafale, the problems are overblown. It is a contract involving domestic production and unprecedented technology transfer, not some off-the-shelf deal like for C-130/C-17.
And F-35C will be in squadron service by the time AMCA even goes to prototype.
So? :confused:
Even if the United States was willing to offer India comparable technology transfer on F-35 in 2020 as France offered on Rafale in 2010 (and that’s an enormous ‘if’) it wouldn’t be good enough as India would already have progressed beyond satisfaction with that level of technology transfer, much as it has already progressed beyond satisfaction with level of transfer involved in Su-30MKI. In contrast a joint Indo-Russian LMFS program would fill (would have to fill, as the sine qua non of India’s participation) the largest remaining hole constraining India’s future aerospace development prospects: the lack of an advanced indigenous turbofan. If the United States wants to play a major role in India’s future combat aircraft endeavours, it should consider parting with e.g. F414.
Thing is India is trying to play the big boy game. In reality it’s still a regional player only.
I don’t get the impression that India is overreaching. They are aware of their limitations as well as their opportunities. The next generation belongs to China, there is no question of that. It is the generation after that in which India will emerge as the third global power. What is important today, in addition to meeting the needs of the moment, is to lay the groundwork for that era. Programs like Tejas and MMRCA are doing just that. F-35 would not do that.
Also India has cut FGFA requirement to 144 aircraft – again that may shrink further.
I think it will eventually expand, much as the Su-30 order did. Much like T-10, T-50 is a platform in it for the long haul, and as India’s Su-30s start to retire there will be ample requirements to accommodate further developments. I expect that by 2030 we will see a Su-34-esque variant in both Russian and Indian service.
RiiIn this case M346 > Yak-130.
RiiWith a better camera those shots could’ve been amazing. =/
RiiI’m not meaning that they are superior, equal or whatever to F35, only that difference might not be as huge as some expect, and that operational capabilities given a specific context should be considered.
Well yeah, but questioning the mantra that everything that isn’t VLO is obsolete is like opening the gates of hell. Even if you succeed in exposing the self-serving biases in the American narrative, you’re likely to go mad in the process. When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks also into you.
RiiI recall that India was seeking replacements for the 2012 losses of two-seat M2Ks which were used to transition pilots to the type. My thought: why not buy an extra squadron or two while they’re at it?
RiiIn the MRCA context, the rafale is far more competitive then the F-35, hence LMA did not even bother offering the F-35 and chose to offer the F-16I instead. By bidding with the F-35, they would have failed to meet timelines for IOC and delivery, and would not have been able to bid with a fixed amount. That would have meant an outright disqualification.
Most importantly, F-35 would not have been able to meet technology transfer requirements.
J-10 would’ve stood more chance of securing MMRCA than F-35.
But China, Russia and the US, are all committed to 5th generation projects for the future.
As is India. See: FGFA, AMCA, IUSAV.
They still have to fly 4th and 4.5 gen jets for a long time.
Yep, even the United States will be operating 4th gen aircraft into the mid-2030s, China and Russia probably a decade beyond that. Same story for all the second-tier players. Yet somehow the prospect that India may have to wait till ~2030 to field a second VLO manned combat aircraft (LMFS or AMCA) is UNACCEPTABLE. :rolleyes:
RiiLook who’s finally got a coat of paint:
Much better. :eagerness:
I don’t know how recent this Mi-38 paintwork is but it’s the first time I’ve seen it: http://russianplanes.net/id116700
RiiPersonally, I think the F-35 is the only real viable solution for India and little is to be gained by acquiring the Rafale.
This is because you are a clown who makes no attempt to engage with the Indian national security perspective.
Depends on how you define national security.
Defining it merely in terms of fielded military capabilities would be a mistake. Everyone preferences domestic development insofar as their resources allow, and for good reason. Japanese procurement doesn’t make any sense considered otherwise, but it makes perfect sense when one realises the objective is to maintain the baseline industrial skillsets so that the nation can rapidly rearm if required.
Right now over half of India’s fleet is aircraft considered obsolete by most other countries – MiG-21, MiG-27 and Jaguar.
The same is true of almighty China. Indeed, China is only just now wrapping production of J-7s and J-8s, to say nothing of such ‘borderline obsolete’ platforms (as you would characterise them) as JH-7 and J-10A.
EDIT: Basically MRCA should’ve been in squadron service by now.
Everything takes longer than it should in India. One program that actually IS ridiculous is the Jaguar re-engining which is not due to be complete until into the 2020s a few years before they’ll have to retire!
The funny thing is that since India started developing indigenous jet fighters (HF24 Marut) in 1957, it has imported many hundreds and if not thousands of foreign fighter aircraft.
So in 56 years India has not achieved self sufficiency and are still buying hundreds of foreign aircraft.
Previously India didn’t have the bargaining power to negotiate better terms with Russia et al. Now they do, and part of increasing that bargaining power comes from diversifying the acquisition base beyond Russia so as to force Moscow to offer more competitive terms. That was one of the key principles of MMRCA. By abandoning MMRCA and Tejas you might as well send a telegram to Moscow saying plz screw us around some more kthx. There’s no need to comment on Scooter‘s laughable suggestion that India obtain equal partnership in 6th gen armed with nothing but impeccable English. Even the Japanese know that they won’t get access to US 6th Gen unless they can prove that they can just about build it themselves.
Well, is the current course working??? India is going to manufacture a 4.5 Generation Fighter. (i.e. Rafale) When most of it’s rivals are focusing on 5th Generation Types and some even thinking ahead to 6th Generation! So, much like the LCA by time the Rafale get’s into Full Squadron Service in maybe nearly obsolete!
Yeah, China is so far into 5G+ that it has multiple 4th generation aircraft yet to enter service — J-10B, J-15, J-16.
China is not that far ahead, the only real hole is the lack of a 5G carrier-capable medium aircraft and that will be addressed either by AMCA or a joint program with the Russians, advancing both military and strategic industrial objectives. And frankly, there is only so much India can do to keep up with China. In the absence of an imminent threat, compromising long-term national security objectives in favour of shinier toys in the present is a penny-wise, pound-foolish proposition.
RiiProblem is India is defining it’s scope as much more than neighbouring countries. They are looking at the entire Indian Ocean and that includes Africa, Middle East and Asia. Not to mention they want to be able to counter China.
So? That’s what Super-30, Rafale, FGFA, IUSAV, etc. are for. Tejas can still fulfil a valuable operational role even if its true value lies in industrial development. As an investment in national security Tejas is far more valuable than F-35.
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