I’d like to discuss the war in the Agean between the Greeks and the Persians back in 464AD. I read a story about it a little while ago and it seems that the Greeks didn’t have the numbers but the did have the technologyand weaponry to defeate a numerically superior force.

Yes Id like to discuss the sea battle of Salamis, where greek triremes defeated the larger Persian fleet. Interesting facts about greek triremes are that they were narrower and deeper draft than persian galleys. They had 2 banks of oars not three. They were very light weight for their size, the crew could drag them onto the beach. They were all powered by greek free men not slaves. A flute player kept time, not a drummer. Greeks (Athenian) were renown for the their ship handleing capabilitys, sparten triremes would form a circular defencive formation when they appeared.

No chance of people wanting to stay in their homes? Anyone here want their home levelled?

Squating is actually a legitmate problem in Africa. Why cant anyone look at the larger picture and always just focus on imediate circumstances?

well i think we can go by two way …. my belief is that if they had the surface combatants to give cover to their attack subs running from the ASW assets of the opponents, the things wud definetely have been different. With the newer XXI entering to later-on ….

Yes I suppose it would have been nice, but it wasnt possible. The Kriegsmarine litterally had to fight over allotments of steel against the Wehrmacht. The destroyers the germans had were bad, and barely servicable. Its also interesting to note that in WW1, after the battle of Jutland, niether the german nor british navy ever left port after that. The type XXI was easily able to escape ASW attack with its high underwater speed, so they could have decimated the convoy system had they entered the war early.

Its not abt the similarity of the subs mentioned to Type-21, but the general WW-II submarine profile. Well i don know y u guys don see it. As for me it definetely does. Don u guys see any similarity in the gereral profile of Agosta, U-209 class & Foxtrot class to that of the U-boats or for that matter WW-II boats. See the side profile, the fore section with an almost vertical chopped off profile and so does the front profile which looks like this — () —- rather than this — O —- which is what Kilo, Zawaaris (Dutch built, US design) among some others & the newer designs like Scorpene, U-212/214 and ofcourse the best of the lot, Amur looks life. I don know h to say it better than that for now. I hope u guys are getting what i mean.

Yes I think I know what your talking about, but I dont think it has much to do with hull design, rather european SSKs seem to ride higher in the water due to greater internal boyancy. Also they are shorter in relation to their length compared to US subs, Im guessing this helps them maintain persicope/snorkel depth better.

If you want to watch Das Boot, be sure and rent the directors cut video, it leaves in alot more stuff that was in the book and that regular audiences dont have the patience to watch. Thats the big problem with naval movies and especially classic sub movies like Up Persicope and Run Silent Run Deep is they dont make the combat scenes realistic as most movie audiences wouldnt understand it. Be sure and read the book Das Boot, the depth charge attacks are absolutely riviting. The way the hydrophone man calls out coordinates and the captain reponds with ship maneuvering commands, you can really picture everything in your head exactly as it went on.

Are they going to get rid of Perrys also, or will they keep some of them around?

Blackcat-Your posts are difficult to read, and some are unreadable, but Ill try to respond.

Will u enlighten as to h the Russian SSKs suck?

I already admitted I spoke out pre-concieved ideas to stir up debate and dont have any real knowledge of this subs.

The duchies had their sub designs from the US and thats what they made ss for the Italians its really news, as what i knew was they were more so the makers of small submersible and sp-op subs.

The Dutch made subs for Italians? Havent heard that. But the Italians have designed full sized coastal subs on their own. I recall one of them sank with all hands due to some valve or hatch left open, which might explain lack of export sales.

But one thing that I shud not miss is that the $itchy Italians who did not sell the IN submersibles in the 80’s for carrying on-board the IN’s carrier is now ready to sell everything and make it cheap in here and sell it for a good return (after all 1Euro = ~ 60 Rupees) …. now thats a first-rate confidence, as its an Italian $itch who is in control back in India.

Are you just talking general manufacturing or military?

First of all it was Amrikkans & the Brits who got almost the entire German naval & other stuffs and so was the case with the Type-21.

No they didnt get their entire stuff from the type XXI, the americans modified the Gato with high speed underwater abilitys in the Guppy program. Not much was copied of the XXI.

And r u proving over here that u’ve not yet see even the pics of the French Rubis & Scorpene and other submarines? But then I’d definetely like a taller conning tower for the SSBNs as I’d be comfortable enough to have my body under the water for as much depth as possible when in telescopic depth. But one imp & primary factor that u ignored was thet the conning tower imparts stablity to a submerged sub.

They are tall but thin. The wide stubby sails on the XXI and many russians subs cause alot of drag. And they dont make any difference to underwater stability which is why the idea of retractable conning towers has been considered to improve underwater speed.

As for the designs, the French & the Germans just recently shed their U-boat/WW-II looks in the form of Scorpene & U-212/214 while the earlier ones screamed —- smoothened U-boats — where as the Rusians dumped it with Kilos.

I really dont get what youre saying.

I hope u meant the Russian SSBNs, when u mentioned abt steering problems coz of the shape of the stern. Wud u let me know, as to how then the Russians are capable enough of doing ‘Carzy Ivan’ with their SSBNs if there is a whole lot of problems with steering the subs?

No, I was refering to the XXI as having steering problems due to the shape of the stern.

BTW, can u tell a bit more abt the probs that u saw with the flood holes on the Russian subs? …..

Flood holes cause drag and noise, so its really puzzeling why the russians have them on modern boats.

NO! ……. what they shud have done shud have been to pull out/throw in the bin what they had to accept after WW-I —— and that is to built Surface Combatants. The German lost the naval one only coz they did not have enough surface combatants. Just think of a scene where the Germans had enough surface combatants to have good cover for thir U-baots and a good enough number of Bismarks to kick the $hit out of the Brits. Now the ‘battle for Bismark’ was like Lion Vs Hyenas, where the latter triumphed for the additional invaluable strength that the numbers gave …. as for me I believe in that (Surface combatants) as it would most likely have ensured that the the Colonial RN wud have become History even if the Germans did not win.

The germans didnt have the materials to build a large surface navy, they could have defeated Britain if they had more/better subs.

As for ur this quote and the above quote of Sucking Russian SSKs , i put this one from a westerner (dated article), as anything other than than western source wud seem undigestable for the ohsoooorationale western minds.

Once again I admit I dont really know anything about Kilos, sorry for that comment.