HotshotThe EODAS will have interesting features but it is not magical either. For the CAS role, I seriously doubt it has enough range to detect small arms fire, like assault rifles or machine guns. The F-35 will have nice features for CAS like automatic cueing of the EOTS by the helmet, but the DAS will probably be useless against the enemy infantry. Unless there is no defense at all and the F-35 can approach really close.
HotshotThe first rule of guns…
1. If your enemy is in range, then you are in range too.
In some scenarios ( 99% of cases in the last 10 years ) there is little or no defense. In some cases even a GBU-12 is too powerful, so unless they come up with smaller LGBs, the gun is better suited. The SDB1 is smaller but has no laser guidance, so it is not as accurate for delicate situations. And it won’t be available before block 3F anyways.
You can’t also be sure that you’ll be able to do CAS from altitude. If the USAF is fighting in a place where the weather is ****ty the planes will have to approach the targets.
HotshotIn the first article it says that they are not developing tactics for the external load yet. Block 2B will have external loads available, right?
Also from what I understand the A and B won’t have their gun enabled before block 3F. A CAS plane without a gun is kind of hard to swallow.
The Air to Air capabilities will also be very limited with only 2 internal 120Cs until block 3F. The US will have around one hundred F-35As and Bs that will be almost useless in air to air until 2018 or so. That doesn’t sound too bright. I would at least have tried to add 2 external AMRAAMs until then. Adding external missiles is probably no big deal if the weapon software is already available.
Patience is a virtue with this program to say the least…
HotshotThe F-15E is sold now with a choice of PW-232 or GE-132, so the USAF could chose the one it wants for its F-15Es. The current engines on the Es ( 229s ) would go to the F-15Cs. The Cs would get like 15% more thrust and the Es 10%+ more thrust.
I believe they had tested an F-15C with 229s back in the early 90s, it could supercruise at Mach 1.3 if I remember correctly what I read.
HotshotIt would be great if the USAF could upgrade the engines. Like upgrade the F-15Es with 132 or 232, and give the 229s to the F-15Cs. Then probably both the Cs and Es would be capable of supercruise. The USAF would have 360 supercruise capable F-15s, pretty good…
The invesment would be around 180*12million per plane= 2.16 billion. That is significant but if the F-15Cs and Es remain in service for another 15+ years that would be worth it I think.
But I know there is no money for that lol…
HotshotYes, but the cruise speed will likely double compared to F-18/F-35, and that does allow for fewer jets
Note that the RCAF has never shown interest in the F-22.
The RCAF has to buy what’s available on the market soon. The CF-18s have to be replaced completely before 2025, which is around 10 years before the 6th gen US fighters could replace them.
The F-35/F-18 can intercept on afterburner, so they are not half as fast. The F-35 has a high fuel fraction, so it can fly in supersonic on afterburner almost as far and as fast as an F-22 in supercruise. The increased IR signature is not that bad against bombers.
Finally, intercepting bombers in not like intercepting tactical planes, the number of opposing aircraft is much lower. Even if one fighter destoys one bomber per sortie, that would be enough to inflict very serious losses to the Russian bomber fleet quickly.
Hotshotits a good bet next US fighter is going to be more A2A oriented than F-35,
can Canada extend service life of current fleet ?
otherwise out of current options, i too think F-16I w CFT is the most appropriate for Canada,
and wonder why its so few takers ?
I guess they don’t consider the F-16 sufficiently superior to the legacy hornet. And the F-16 doesn’t have a probe.
However, the F-16 would have significantly more patrol range thanks to the CFTs and the JHMCS and the sniper pods already in service could be reused.
As for the next gen US fighters, it seems that the designs are focused on a dual engine heavy fighter. That would cost too much for Canada.
HotshotThe F-16 is never considered but it wouldn’t be such a bad idea. It is single engine but it has proven to be very reliable. The RCAF doesn’t need a heavy fighter like the SH.
HotshotThe J-31 looks so much like an F-35, I wonder if the EODAS and EOTS of the F-35 will be able to distinguish between the 2.
HotshotHey, again…WHY do you take it sooo personally that someone, a person, a Nation whatever do NOT like the F35?………seriously…….
I am FAR from crying………and I am justified……EXACTLY what I have been saying for ages it seems has been seen in the last two days IN PRINT from Canadian papers that are covering a breaking Scandal ( AGAIN) about the F35…….
Just accept that Canada is NOT really a good “candidate” for the F35……I don;t care about “engineers”…….I care about a fiscally responsible Country ( Try it USA…Oh thats right NEVER happens)……what was it 3 TRILLION in debt? and most of it to CHINA……I don;t care if the SH was “designed in the 80’s”………….FUNNY how it IS the plane of choice for the US NAVY…THEY are VERY happy with it!……and DON’T seem to want the F35…….
and again……I highly doubt that Canada should be worried about a T50 ( only FIVE (5) exist) ( seeing as that is the PROTO TYPE of the PAK FA…) as I said……there isn;t going to be swarms of those coming to Canada is there?………maybe other planes…..but doubtfully T50’s……lol…..besides…they will save all their “stealthy” high tech stuff to go up against the US and it’s ” stealthy” Tech Stuff…just to see……
And I would DOUBT that 65 F35’s would do better to keep 20 year old Pilots alive…….because Fighter Pilots in the RCAF are to a man older than that…..mature, capable, confident and have experience and are Officers long before going to flight school, oh as well as being University Grads or Royal Military College grads first…AND recognized by Pilots from ALL NATO Nations as being amongst the best there is…even by US pilots, known to be well respected and skilled……..
and I am certainly not crying at all……..seems like YOU are the one that just can;t stand to see the F35 fail to impress, especially a whole Nation….wonder if the Aussies will stay the course?….and as for being an “embarrassing Kid”?………….ah NO…….I’m Military Vet…..22 years Fire Service, a family and manage to survive without the F35…….incredible eh?………do YOU have actual Military service or are you a keyboard hero with a Fighter plane fettish?…….TOMCAT ViP……must burn your ass to hear people run down that plane as well eh?…….
One question is, can the Russians find a way to escort their bombers with fighters. If yes, you’re better off having a fighter that can counter the PAK-FA.
HotshotThose figures accurate?……..I mean for LRIP 8 is it FACTUALLY 108 Million or is HOPED to be 108 Million……and does that include all the extras…like engine and this whole Maintenance, Upgrades “contract” add on costs mess…….and if not…how much does that actually increase the “Drive home cost”…….I can;t stand these partial figures…..what I want to know is…Country X is buying an F35 RIGHT NOW….how much DOES it cost?…INCLUSIVE…and NOT speculated to be in 6 months or a year…..
this seems to be the difficult question for anyone to answer, without getting into LRIP this or that and speculated costs next year…….JUST the COMPLETE cost right now……with the Engine, the support, upgrades contracts maintenence contract etc………does anyone actually know?……..
The cost of the engine has decreased by around 4% from LRIP-7 to LRIP-8.
The low rate initial production (LRIP) contract for the eighth lot will deliver 48 total engines. The contract also includes program management, engineering support, and spare modules. Average prices for the conventional takeoff and landing and carrier variant (CTOL/CV) and short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) variant engines were reduced roughly 3.5 to 4.5 percent respectively from LRIP 7 to LRIP 8.
The F-35 URFC for LRIP -7 was 112 million including the engine. Substracting 4% will give you an URFC for LRIP-8 of around 108 million.
Also, although “Exercises” ARE to gain operational experiences between Nations, practice tactical skills etc……there is ALWAYS a VERY healthy level of competition between participants…..it was the same in the Army with the Armoured Corp…..so there definately will be opinions and some evidence of how a plane or a tank etc. really does do…although individual crew / pilot ability will also show through…….
Air forces are cautious not to disclose some of the critical capabilities of their planes, especially when it comes to radar modes and stealth. It depends on who is training against who.
HotshotOK, people keep saying the “costs” are “getting close to that of Gen 4.5” or they are being reduced…..but I fail to be able to see that as the “costs” don;t include the engine, the added SUBSTANTIAL costs of the “contracted” support, maintenence, upgrades etc…as I was so forcefully told was “normal”…NORMAL to the tune of an additional $15.8 MILLION per plane. ( as per the article posted last page)…….so what is the ACTUAL “take home price”…because without an engine the thing is useless…the add on costs are substantial….so where is it getting “cheaper”…….because all those add on costs are HIGHER than what was expected right?…..so doesn;t that sortof say the costs are still the same?……or even higher?…….I am really just trying to get my mind around the “costs getting cheaper”…….
The cost of the F135 was 14 million in LRIP 7 for the basic variant. The price is expected to decrease in LRIP 8.
That puts the cost of the F-35A at 108 million ( URFC ) for LRIP 8. The cost will probably decrease faster than 4% per year after LRIP 8. With the increase in production it is very possible that it would decrease by 5-6% per year until the first MYP. The MYP will see the cost decrease even more.
Lockheed is also investing in the production line to reduce the cost of dozens of F-35 parts. The US government will pay for the investment that will have proven worthwhile.
HotshotPerhaps we will get some information about exercises between the british F-35s and typhoons, that would be interesting. Other than that, I doubt the F-35, and even the other planes will use their systems to their full capabilities in exercises.
HotshotThe F-35 has gotten steadily cheaper to produce.
Well, duh. The first set of questions: where the trend line will flatten out, how much that depends on international customers taking early buys, and how that actually compares with other products.
The second question is CPFH, which is actually a bigger deal.
The cost of the F-35A is getting close to that of 4.5 gen fighters. Under these conditions customers will probably prefer the F-35, except for cases like small air forces focused more on defense, which might prefer the grippen probably.
The CPFH will decrease when the F-35 gets more maturity. Basing long term estimates on data from the current fleet is rather hazardous.
Hotshotb) While the production costs by unit have been getting lower, they have been getting lower at a much slower rate than the JPO, LM and the USAF predicted for more than a decade (before 2012/13). According to the 2009 USAF Budget, the (roughly) 85 million US$ URFC that Bogdan is promising for 2019 should have been attained circa… LRIP 7, thats 2013.
There is no point really to come up with old cost estimation based on much higher production numbers than have really happened.
It is encouraging to see that the cost continues to decline by about 4% per year despite the almost constant production. Even if the production didn’t increase, the cost would probably continue to decrease somewhat. But of course the production run will increase in the coming years.
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