AFAIK, according to manufacturer, head on detection range is about 35 km for OLS-35 (su-35) and 15 km for OLS-UE (Mig-35) . Laser range finder distance is about 15-20 km against airborne targets

I had read that.

I am a bit surprise that the detection range from the front is only 1/3 the range from behind but that’s probably true.

The Su-35 can triangulate with their IRST to get a range estimation.

This makes me wonder what’s the best way to escape after launching in BVR. Turning away on AB is almost a guarantee to be detected. Maybe turning 90 degrees and escape w/o AB could be an option, but the RCS from the side is higher.

That’s why I think these scores at Red Flag have to be taken with a bit of skepticism, the enemy fighters may counter attack.

I saw that the other day:

What I am wondering is if the F-35 couldn’t have an MLU with an UCAV capability in the mid 30’s or something.

I was talking about an F-16 UCAV because it is a relatively short term feasable possibility.

that’s what Google Go playing AI did, it played a trillion games against itself (or variations of itself) and that way came up with superhuman tactics

That could be an interesting approach to figure out new tactics, and also to figure what the next generation of aircraft should look like.

Well some of the f-16s at red flag were carrying bigger, more advanced FLIRs than the OLS and the F-35s were dropping 2000lb bombs on radars far bigger than the irbis-e.

The Su-35 features a upgraded variant of the OLS, touted as being able to detect non AB aircraft at 50km head on, and 90 from the rear. Plus it has a laser range finder.

And who knows if the F-16s equipped with the IRSTs didn’t detect the F-35s from significant distance? We don’t have all the details of the exercise. We knows if the F-16s were no considered killed at long BVR range, like 50km+ ?

Besides this, in the tactics we were discussing, it is not sure that an F-35 can guide an AMRAAM launched by another F-35. With the 120D is should be no problem, but with the 120C it is not sure. I am not saying it can’t do that, I say maybe yes maybe no.

They managed to get within JDAM range thanks to heavy jamming from the growlers. The F-35s have a very low RCS so obviously heavy jamming would be very effective to help it get close. Against air targets it’s rather unlikely it would have a growler doing SOJ.

Given that the legacy aircraft is at a double disadvantage at BVR:

– The stealthier fighters detecting the legacy fighters far earlier calls up for reinforcements before the non-stealthy fighters are even aware of what’s out there, so the legacy fighters more often than not will end up fighting 2 waves of F-35’s without help being able to arrive on time. Any chase they give the first wave of F-35s after the initial volley will likely be head on into another group of F-35s which makes the second wave of F-35s’ shots even more lethal.
– The legacy fighter are immediately on the defensive after the F-35s get their first shots off

Also, given the level of integration and the ease of sorting targets between F-35s, as well as the fact that it’s in the F-35’s best interests to minimise the number of times they open their bays, I would expect the F-35 force (let’s call them “blue”) to operate as below in the initial period of the battle.

– 4 ships of F-35’s approach 4 ships of red air as a wide~ish line to assist with signal triangulation, zigzagging slightly from time to time (using their high yaw AoA capability similar to the F-22’s) to watch their flanks
– Once red aircraft are detected (almost always first), 3 blue shooters switch off radars and lead while one sits back tracking the targets (well outside threat range with engine running slow and cool). Any use of jamming by red aircraft in this case may in fact assist the lead F-35’s in maintaining an integrated track amongst the group.
– Additional blue F-35’s (or perhaps faster 4th gen aircraft) are alerted and fly to the egress path the leading F-35s will take after they attack the red aircraft.
– Leading F-35’s fire all 4 missiles at the enemy from different angles, spreading their shots across multiple targets (no matter which direction they turn, they will turn into the path of missiles), then turn away leaving the tracking to the rear aircraft with active radar. The moment the enemy fighters start evading, their RCSs increase massively as they bank and turn and their defensive jamming degrades.

F-35’s can choose to be as cautious or bold as required. If blue forces choose to take the shots from a safe, long range (ie. during a border skirmish) where single shot PK is just 15% then…

% chance of 1 kill = 85%
% chance of 2 kills = 55%

After the initial volley the lead F-35s fly back along the egress path through incoming reinforcements. Options available following this are a followup from a second wave of F-35’s that were alerted earlier… overall 72% chance that 3 red aircraft fall to the 2 F-35 waves (92% after block 4 with 6 missiles). Perhaps long range shots can be taken from Typhoons (as second wave) or similar carrying 6-8 meteors while the red aircraft are evading… overall 91% of all 4 red aircraft being shot down by the F-35 wave immediately followed up by 4th gen “gunboats” all with a low 15% single shot PK from long range and F-35 eyes’ on targets up close.

Stealth + SA provides options that are just not available with legacy fighters, even ones with the SA component.

For sure all sorts of interesting tactics can be used, leading to high exchange ratio.

I am still skeptical that your F-35s would be able to approach that close without being detected by the latest generation of IRSTs and sukhoi 35 radar.

I think I would load all the longest range AMRAAMs available on a single F-35 (4 internal 120C-7 ), have it fire its 4 missiles at about 70km, and have it escape right away. The other 3 are on min AB to maintain supersonic speed while approaching the targets and guidind the 4 missiles already in the air. As soon as the 4 missiles have reached their targets, 2 of the 3 F-35s fire all their missiles at the remaining targets, try to escape while the 4th F-35 guides the missiles. After that the 4th F-35 is at relatively close range (< 20km ) and does what he can to kill the last ones without entering in WVR and escape.

What do you mean ‘couple years’? Please don’t make up alternative facts. The JPO estimates the Block 3F development will conclude in July 2017 while the DOT&E estimate is Jan 2018. In either case, it will conclude within the next 12 months away. Most likely before the end of this year.

I’m still skeptical they will be able to maintain those targets, and even at that between development and IOC there’s a difference. Consider also the fact that most F-35s now don’t even have block 3I.

they won’t actually, using UCAVs for air combat is taboo
I read an article about how the USAF tested remotely controlled F-4s in dogfights against manned F-4s. they found that after a learning curve the remote operators would win pretty much every fight because they could turn sharper than their manned opponents. when they got in a fight all they had to do was get in a turning match and they’d get the advantage

Anyways the UCAV ( F-16s or other ) would be used mainly to launch AMRAAMs. No need to maneuver much for that. In WVR they can use either AMRAAMs or AIM-9Xs at very short range, so here again no need to maneuver much. Maximum maneuvrability would be more useful to avoid missiles. Perhaps the F-35 can detect the missiles being fired at the drone and send the order to do an evasive maneuver.

I think they’d simulate many possible tactics on computers and in the simulator to figure out the best ones.

FB

The yeti is real, and while looking like… well… awfull… its a dam fine “animal”, i actually had one…

(A Skoda built one)

(Sorry for the offtopic) I´ll get me coat

Bigfoot/sasquatch does exist ( well 99% chances ). Read on the subject it’s fascinating. 😀

I’m guessing by “datalink not fast enough” you mean that the F-35 pilot will manually steer the F-16s in a dogfight?
because at BVR combat that’s not relevant
and WVR, as I mentioned software running on a Rasberry Pie will let a computer outfight any human pilot
http://www.zdnet.com/article/raspber…-sim-dogfight/

especially when datalinked with an F-35 with the latest sensors they’ll kick ass
and you don’t need much data for that, all you have to know is the location of all aircraft in the area (simple GPS location + altitude), their bearing and speed (again a simple string of numbers), and the computers will compute from there how best to engage
there’s no need for large sized data streams with detailed images of the enemy, an AMRAAM doesn’t need that either to do its job

You may be right, maybe they’ll do it. It might even be possible for 1 F-35 to control several F-16s with enough automation. For a2g it would be easier of course.