eagleWho knows what would have happened to this concept if funds permitted. Maybe some would be flying for South Korea soon?
eagleIt will be interesting to see if the US export ex-USAF F-15C’s. After the F/A-22 enters full service? I would imagine that a few maybe sold to Israel or Japan in the short term. That said, the F-15C would make a good secondhand strike fighter……………….thought expensive! I really don’t see the USAF keeping the Eagle on much longer. (i.e. except the F-15E of course) Just cost’s to much to mantain. The Navy had the same problem with the Tomcat in the end. More than like they will fill the gap with the F-35’s………….
I dont think so. By the time those C models will be retired, they have seen some 25 years of hard A/A flying. Without a complete rework, theyre being sold for crap at best.
eagleWith MiG-21 I am damn glad I am not one 😉
I would take the results from Ethiopia and Eritrea carefully. The failures of R-27s could have specific reasons. I have read of poor maintenance, transport damage, as well as overall reluctancy of African pilots to risk anything, which resulted in immediate firing of salvoes of missiles as long as the radar got a lock, often well outside their effective range.
As with BVR IR homers, R-27 is not quite alone, MICA also has its own IR variant, me thinks it is a pretty interesting idea to follow the first part of trajectory according to inertail nav system and then switch to passive IR guidance. IR guided missiles are well proven, where should be a problem?
I think most of those SHAR missiles are not very effective against fighter targets. R-27, Sparrow or even the French 530, more ballast than weapon.
The MICA is a pretty small BVR missile. The French should have developed a proper one and improve the Magic. Now they have a missile too large for WVR and to small for BVR. The MICA is just a good compromise me thinks.
On the other side, the US, Russia, Europe with the Meteor, Israel and South Africa all invest in radar guided missiles and i see no IR stuff.
Oh, and with the MiG-21… as over G said, the U model is a trainer not a fighter. Maybe you would enjoy a ride in the single seater. 😉
eagleThat is the first time I hear about great energy loss with the Su-27 and I think you are well mistaken.. I would agree on Mirage 2000, though…
That comment was about the 360° AOA. Maybe i dont get what that is, but it sounds like you turn the Flanker around one time without gaining altitude. Well, that means you loose A LOT of speed. Even the engines are pointed forward for 180° Sounds like a very crazy idea.
eagleThe thing is damn hard to fly. No visibility, no boosters. I have climbed into MiG-21UM once and after they have closed the canopy and I have recognized that I can barely turn my head even without a helmet and see sh!t both rearwards and forwards, I have told myself – I would never ever dare to fly this coffin. And after pulling the stick and feeling the heavy force I need to push with when just taxying I wonder whether this machine is able to turn at all…
My utmost respect goes to any pilot who was able to shoot down something or had the balls to face an F-16 and F-15 in this wreck…
Interesting to know. But remember youre not a pilot. :p 😀
Well, the R-27 has a terrible record from ERAF/ETAF, but it looks that many AFs are very satisfied with this missile.. Don’t know whether this was caused by bad maintenance or bad design.
But if we take SARH R-27 as effective as AIM-7, then it has got two huge advantages: long-range ER/ET versions and its IR guided brother. So you basically lose the first-shoot capability in an F-15 and won’t even know something IR guided is after you after you managed to get rid of the SARH lock. I would not feel too safe in the F-15 against Su-27, there is so much than can screw up..
But the longer range doesnt help you if your missile wont hit anyway. Of course its not nice to know that something out there is going after you…
Regarding the IR BVR weapons, it seems strange to me that most modern BVR missiles rely on radar so there must be an issue with the IR guidance.
However, the IRST of the Flanker is a nice thing the Eagle doesnt have.
eagleIt turns your plane into a very effecitve airbrake. 😀
eagleThe kills have been mainly divided among AIM-9L, Python-3 and AIM-7F, plus some occassional 20mm. Well, MiG-23 ain’t exactly a good dogfighter, no wonder. MiG-21 might turn well against an F-4, but today also falls in the rather bad dogfighter category..
I always thought the MiG-21 is a reasonable opponent close in. Even today.
But it atleast shows the Eagle is able to turn contrary as to what the Viper Community wants us to believe. 😀
That would be a very risky tactics, IMHO. Remember that Flanker has the edge on BVR, especially considering the large diameter motor R-27s with extended range. I would generally rate Eagle’s slotted APG over Flanker’s Cassegrain N001 which gives the F-15 first look possibility, but the first shoot goes for the 27, anyway.. The Eagle could never have a chance to get within effective range of its Sparrows or AMRAAMs, especially when every fired SARH R-27ER is silently followed by its IR-guided comrade, R-27ET.
If the R-27 has about the same pk as the Sparrow, I dont see where the advantage is. Plus i think the Eagle has better ECM systems so its chances to survive the R-27 are even higher than the Flankers to survive the Sparrows.
The IR missile is nice, but i wonder how effective its going to work at BVR.
Anyway, i think the hit and run tactic isnt so great because its the Eagles job afterall to shoot down those Flankers. So it might use its edge in energy fights, use the Sparrow mainly to scare the enemy and finish the job with the winder.
eaglewait, wait, one thing is a linear flight in which the f15 is better by the delta wing -but isnt a huge difference-, other thing is to manouevre at such speeds in which the su27 aerodynamics are better, i think that there is a missinterpretation about that, because the su27 high aspect ratio wing has more drag at higher speeds, but its aerodynamics are more advanced and save more energy than the eagle, but there is an advantage of 0.05M above the mig29 in wich the 15c has a better turn, but isnt significant
Well im no expert in aerodynamics, but its generally understood the Eagle has a minor advantage at high subsonic speeds whereas the Flanker has quite a huge advantage at low speeds.
the israel pilots are good, even with mirages3 beated the mig21-17, but good radars always give you a tactical advantage (even if in the end you shoot aim-9s) also were not a lot as you say, there were lots of planes downed by Aim7s (most of kills were done with sparrows) -that if the israel numbers are true, because the war is also propaganda war- that reduce the planes that you must face, and kill them with f16…
also one thing is to manoeuvre a plane with a locked-radar enemy and other is flying manoeuvring against the aim7 wall tring to reach your enemy with your rwr ringing constantly :rolleyes: even in that scenarie the f15 will have a better oportunity to shoot an aim9, the f15 first kills (pre-war-1978/9) were done with cannon, aim9s, but that dont mean that they didnt shoot aim7, actally one claim is with the sparrow
Agree, good avionics are always an advantage.
What i can read out of your post is that the Eagle is supreme in every aspect compared to the enemies it encountered. 😉
eagleLion share of downed MiG-23s were monkey versions MiG-23MS and later MF. Since the MS were equipped with ancient RP-21 radars, they were nothing more than uprated MiG-21s with swept wings. The KOLS equipped MiG-23MLDs or datalinked MiG-23Ps serving with VVS SSSR were a bit different story.
OTOH, shooting down MiG-25s was a nice achievement which deserves high credit..
Point taken, but a lot of those kills were made using the Sidewinder or even the cannon so the Eagle did well in dogfights against MiGs.
The MiG-25 is not a very hard target to hit if your plane/missile flies fast and high enough. Mission planning is more important here imho.
It would do great against a vanilla Fulcrum, especially the F-15C variant. Su-27 would be MUCH harder to get, they would be likely on par.
Just keep the speed high enough and the Flanker has some serious problems. But in general i would avoid any fight against a Flanker. 😀 Maybe leave them in a cloud of Sparrows and then run away.
eagleTo be honest the Eagles combat record against Serbian MiGs doesnt say anything about any aircrafts capabilities.
But the F-15 has also shot down many MiG-23 and some MiG-25 which are the planes the Eagle would have shot down over Germany too.
Who knows how the Eagle would do against Flankers/Fulcrums? Not to bad I think.
eagleYes, for example the unnecessary software codes for A-G and weapons integration. Leaving ’em out saves a lot of weight 😉
Yeah but what about the other stuff that saves a lot of weight. The Eurofighter for example has grown from 10t to 11.5t because of AG needs…
eagleThe specialized role of the F-15C, F-22 or Rafale M as of now is actually an advantage. There is less stuff to carry around not needed for air combat. Compare the F-15C to the E or the early Vipers to the latest.
And of course the pilot training.
eagleI have read some where that past mach 0.7, F-15 handles better than Su-27 series. Is it true.
I have read the same. Why not, the Eagle is designed for higher speeds.
The Flanker surely has the advantage at lower speeds.
Problems with the Eagle are the not very impressive roll rate and the limited AoA. But in high speed turns the Eagle is in a class of its own me thinks. Add the very good TWR and you have a hell of a machine. 😎
eagleyes they do degrade performance however the capability that u can have with them is tremendous and well worth the tradeoff..imagine 2 1000 in bomb bays…and 4 1000 in the stealthy pods…thats a possible 6 targets destroyed with 1000 ppund bombs..now imagine how many targets would go if SDB’s are used…very impressive capability..even if some performance restrictions are there i wouldnt mind as this is tremendous a2g ordinance delivering capability.
OK, but an internal bay is even better and you can still attach the pylons anytime you want.
the f-117 has done fine with one crew member..i guess a second member would provide benefit but again with performance weight/size tradeoffs..for a continental range type aircraft 1 could work in my opinion
The F-117 is in another class that flies in and attacks a known target then goes home.
And the 15h mission as being described in the link above is a real pilot killer for a single seater.
I guess it could be done with a single pilot, but thats not the optimal solution. In the end, its a budget question.
eagleStealthy pods and bulged bays are a very interesting option. But these also decrease performance somewhat.
For a strike/interdiction aircraft, a second crewmember would be a nice idea aswell.
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