mig-31bmwake me up when a fighter can sustain 9g at 30k ft,
manned or not, it ain’t gonna happen with current technology,
and missile agility goes downhill in thin air likewise, but with the addition of running out of thrust.
at high altitude, air is thin, so both aircraft and missiles agility go down hill, but an aircraft engine perform worse as well due to lack of air while the missiles rocket engine is not affected by thin air ( missile actually perform better in some aspects because there is less drag which mean the missiles decelerate very very slowly )
another thing to consider is that apart from enemy fighter, SAM is also a big threat to aircraft, and aircraft are not going to have better high altitude performance than big SAM like SM-2, SM-6, S-300, S-400 thus flying at extreme altitude is not really a good idea
mig-31bmFor this idea of slow missile hybrid, I think you’d want the whole missile to have an aerodynamics close to that of a slow drone like the predator with a slow speed of M 0.3-0.4 to have as much loitering time as possible, say 12-24h.
The missile needs to be recoverable because it is very expensive and the probability of intercepting a plane is rather low. That requirements would also add to the complexity and cost but you can’t skip it I think.
The missile needs an IFF and datalink to reduce fratricide.
I would imagine using these missiles for instance to loiter close to an enemy airbase in an initial phase of a conflict. They could be launched from long range platforms in advanced of the strike planes.
Question is, how many of these missiles hybrids would be needed to cover a given area vs regular fighter. A fighter can engage with an AAM from up to 100km whereas this one would engage at around 10-20km. What has to be taken into account is that the operating cost would be very low versus a fighter.
It might be worth looking into it.
isnt a modern fighter cost some where like 100-200 mil USD, these drone could be a much cheaper alternative, probably cost 1-2 million USD , they can be programmed to patrol andarea, and when detect any object they send information to ground center to process… etc
mig-31bmThat’s not a “stealth” AAM it’s an air breathing missile seemingly intended for use against a non manuovering target.
Rather different to the original proposal.
actually no
AERAM used a turbo jet engine = very low IR signature
it have IIR seeker from AIM-9x
it can reach long range
it also have 2 ways datalink
it also only one time use
so it actually very similar to my proposal, the only different , is that in my proposal, i want the hypothetical missiles to have a second fast accelerate stage to that it can be effective again agile target as well
mig-31bmYou know what TRY going to the Manufacturer’s info……..http://http://imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=65740
website down
Ah, YEH, ALARM can climb up 13 KM’s and wait till the radar turns back on, IF it looses a contact it had…..and that doesn;t mean it waits for hours for it….it is a temporary climb and “look” for the Radar coming back online, then it re attacks……..
it have limited loitering ability but it can still loiter , wait for target , just like delilah , harpy , harop ..etc
oh and i though you said JSOW , NSM are not stealth ?what happened to that
and how is a fully controllable UAV that can attack different than a missile?…really?….the UAV can be re landed if no target becomes available….it is therefore recoverable…..can it attack and destroy the target by crashing INTO the target?… sure…the differences are very apparent, seemingly to many others….not sure why you can’t see the differences….bottom line, it is a UAV, a DRONE….and NOT a missile..…
they also call it a missiles in your own link
The unmanned combat aerial vehicle is also known as the Harpy-2 loitering munitions missile. The drone loiters over the battlefield and attacks the targets by self-destructing into them.”…IT IS A UAV that attacks by flying INTO the target
mig-31bmAgain…your fantasy about what Delilah is and can do….easily answered by looking PAST wikpedia……..
RIGHT from IMI website:
“DELILAH AL-Aircraft Launched (Fixed Wing) Stand-Off Surface Attack Missile
Description:
Developed for the Israeli Air Force (IAF), the combat proven DELILAH is an advanced electro-optically guided, stand-off weapon system, designed to provide unique precision strike capabilities against high value, re-locatable and time critical targets. DELILAH has been developed by IMI/ASD and the Israeli Air Force to meet the most challenging requirements of strike missions, offering unique capabilities including ‘pull-up’, ‘go-around’ and ‘re-attack’ capabilities, derived from the weapon’s extended range and loitering capability.
DELILAH allows the Launching Aircraft to remain outside of the lethal envelope of modern Medium and Long Range Surface to Air Missiles (SAM), providing air crews with effective, high precision, man-in-the-loop stand-off strike capability.
Flying deep into the enemy territory, as far as 250 Km, the weapon relies on sophisticated, on-board flight control and navigation systems providing fully autonomous navigation and flight handling.
Technical Specifications:
• Max Weight…………..187 Kg
• Length………………….2.71 m
• Wings Span…………..1.15 m
• Max Range……………250 kmNO where does it say can attack targets moving 50 km/hr. and by the way…it is an awefully BIG cruise missile for attacking a helicopter…lol…and they do have a HELICOPTER Launchable version, a Ship Launched Version and a Ground Launched version as well………
you sure ?
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K_T4M-nA6JYC&pg=PA604&lpg=PA604&dq=delilah+missile+50+km&source=bl&ots=uQFtLuo10A&sig=CG1u-pNuXBLetqOUnEYnkewm-2k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kBaqVP77KIOwUfvTgrgL&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=delilah%20missile%2050%20km&f=false
http://www.iaf.org.il/5642-35312-en/IAF.aspx
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/delilah.htm
as for your LM’s…look at the “Harop” is….did YOU read the description at all?….”Harop is a loitering munition (LM) system developed in Israel by the MBT Missiles Division of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). The unmanned combat aerial vehicle is also known as the Harpy-2 loitering munitions missile. The drone loiters over the battlefield and attacks the targets by self-destructing into them.”…IT IS A UAV that attacks by flying INTO the target
how does that different from a missiles ?
The ALARM, really?…your comparing a missile that goes up 13 km. until it can reacquire it’s target?…hardly the same as flying around for hours aimlessly
“ALARM is a fire-and-forget system, with an added loiter capability. In loiter mode, ALARM will, when launched, climb to an altitude of 13 km. If the target radar shuts down, the missile will deploy a parachute and descend slowly until the radar lights up. The missile will then fire a secondary motor to attack the target”
actually ALARM can wait for enemy to turn on radar
The old generation HARM is also quite easily countered by turning down the targeted radar, leaving the missile without guidance. With the ALARM, this is not possible, as the missile can still navigate its way to the target, or anyway go into loitering mode, climbing at high altitude and dangling from a parachute, forcing the enemy to either keep the radar turned off, letting the strike jets pass, or turn on the radar and be destroyed.
as for the AIM 120 D AMRAAM…sorry info I have says clearly that MAXIMUM Range is 72,000 Meters = 72 Km’s NOT your info saying 185 km……..big difference!
and what make your info more right than mine?
R-37 range = 398 km
Ks-172 = 400 km , they are big obviously because they used rocket engine = not efficient for range
mig-31bmWhat you are proposing is a missile that has the efficiency and loitering ability of a Turbojet with the ability to switch to rocket flight and zip towards a maneuvering target at mach 4 at a moment’s notice.
.
yeah , i was thinking kind of like put a AIM-9 or CUDA on top of Turbojet engine
Kind of 2 stage missile like the hermes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_%28missile%29
mig-31bmWhats the top speed of the Delliah? With Air to Air missiles you are talking about high speed even at the expense of range because you want to minimize the warning time the enemy has to deploy countermeasures and take evasive action. No matter how you deal with this, a subsonic loitering UCAV acting as a mule would be much better and a more logical option especially if the network can be kept secure and the drone can be kept at least as survivable as the fighter from a detection point of view.
If not then this ;):
i dont know the top speed of Delilah but i think they imply it can be used again helicopters
The Delilah missile is the name of a missile family built by IMI. Delilah was initially created as an aerial decoy, and was later developed into an offensive strike weapon in the 1990s used by Israeli F-16 and upgraded F-4E attack aircraft. It can be used as multi platform and against multi target. Such as AS (Air to Surface), SS (Surface to Surface), AtoA (Air to Air) and SA (Surface to Air), targeting ground targets, vehicles and sea vessels, stationary or moving. Can be classified as MRMPGM (Medium Range, Multi Purpose Guided Missile) as All in One. Combat Proven in Lebanon by Israeli Forces.
btw B-1R only carry 20 AAM ? i was expected a higher number
Let me put it this way, If such a weapon (your loitering missile) is not developed in the coming decade or even 2 all you need to do is re-visit this thread and you’d know why 😉
haha alright then
mig-31bm2 way datalink like on the AGM 62 Walleye? your using an UNPOWERED guided munition ( so it had guidance avionics but no power ) using a Television guidance system dating from the 1960″s?…seriously it’s so old it was replaced by the AGM 65 MAVERICK..or perhaps the AGM 84E SLAM ( Standoff Land Attack Missile ) which used the datalink from the AGM 65 Maverick system….that was developed for the US Navy? also retired from service in 2000 and replaced by the AGM 84 H SLAM-ER ( expanded response) which had a better range and penetration. SO, your “future missile” will use technology that is already outdated, and NO NEW tech. is ready for it?…….nice…
AGM 84 H SLAM-ER have IIR seeker +2 way datalink too same as AGM 84E SLAM but it’s sensor also have ATA ability ,also AGM 65 doesnt have data link ,AGM 65 was a LOBL missiles
Delilah?, ALARM well those are direct STATIONARY GROUND targeting Cruise Missiles…..that isn;t loitering…..that is flying to a direct target identified by the launchers…if you honestly think that Cruise Missiles “Loiter” waiting to identify a target…I am sorry, your simply not getting it…..
they does loiter to wait for target actually , they do attack moving target as well
The Delilah missile is a cruise missile developed in Israel by Israel Military Industries (IMI). The missile is designed to target moving and re-locatable targets with a CEP of 1 metre (3 ft 3 in). Unlike a typical cruise missile, which is locked onto a pre-programmed target prior to launch, the Delilah missile is touted by the Israeli military as being able to “patrol” and surveil an area before a remote navigator identifies the specific target of the attack
The Delilah missile is the name of a missile family built by IMI. Delilah was initially created as an aerial decoy, and was later developed into an offensive strike weapon in the 1990s used by Israeli F-16 and upgraded F-4E attack aircraft. It can be used as multi platform and against multi target. Such as AS (Air to Surface), SS (Surface to Surface), AtoA (Air to Air) and SA (Surface to Air), targeting ground targets, vehicles and sea vessels, stationary or moving. Can be classified as MRMPGM (Medium Range, Multi Purpose Guided Missile) as All in One. Combat Proven in Lebanon by Israeli Forces.
The Delilah is an air-launched stand-off missile and cruise missile with a range of 250km. It can be fitted with a variety of warheads which can be targeted on both land and sea targets. It has a turbo jet engine that is able to loiter, allowing it to target well-hidden threats in addition to moving targets.
——————————————————
OK now the AGM – 154 JSOW ) Joint Stand Off Weapon…….which is a GLIDE BOMB of medium range…which is exactly 130 km IF released from a HIGH ALTITUDE, and only 22 km if from a low release and uses GPS / INS for guidance and an Infra red seeker for terminal guidance……BUT it is a glide bomb….hardly what is considered to be “Stealth”….and the NSM is a Norwegian Cruise Missle……again for A2G……..and NOT Stealth!…just a cruise missile…..
JSOW-ER , NSM are missiles and they are stealth , do you even bother to google ?
The state-of-the-art design and use of composite materials is meant to give the missile sophisticated stealth capabilities. The missile will weigh slightly more than 400 kg (880 lb) and have a range of at least 185 km (100 nm). NSM is designed for littoral waters (“brown water”) as well as for open sea (“green and blue water”) scenarios.
JSOW-ER provides the warfighter an affordable extended-range missile that is essentially a spiral of Raytheon’s combat-proven glide JSOW,”
JSOW also features low-signature/stealth design to engage actively defended targets.
—————————————————————-
Your use of throwing around lots of names for Munitions isn’t helping you at all…….NOT ONE is an air to air missile, they are all either bombs or cruise missiles and everyone is for Air to Ground deployment and NONE are LOITER nor STEALTH weapons…
.
JSOW-ER , NSM are stealth missiles
Harpy , Harop , Delilah , ALARM are loiter missile
Harop is a loitering munition (LM) system developed in Israel by the MBT Missiles Division of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). The unmanned combat aerial vehicle is also known as the Harpy-2 loitering munitions missile. The drone loiters over the battlefield and attacks the targets by self-destructing into them.
.http://defense-update.com/products/h/harop.html
ALARM is a fire-and-forget system, with an added loiter capability. In loiter mode, ALARM will, when launched, climb to an altitude of 13 km. If the target radar shuts down, the missile will deploy a parachute and descend slowly until the radar lights up. The missile will then fire a secondary motor to attack the target
, the Delilah has evolved into a sophisticated land attack cruise missile. 2 The missile can be pre-programmed with waypoints and flight altitudes. It also possesses a datalink and the ability to loiter over a target, thus allowing pilots to confirm the target before it strikes. The Delilah is capable of striking moving targets at speeds up to 50 km per hour — making it ideal for mobile SSMs, SAMs, and vehicles smuggling weapons.
———————————————————-
Your BUTT HURT about the fact that your Country will NEVER see an F35…..so you come on a forum and carry on… who cares sunshine…..
iam from UK so actually my country does see f-35
—————————————————————————
and you think that “enemy” ( again you mean U.S / NATO ) planes detect most missile threats sent at them by the engines IR signature?…..not the various lock on’s by Radar etc….after all, we ARE talking about an A2A missile right, not a A2G Cruise missile
never sad enemy is U.S / NATO
and yes planes detect most missile threats sent at them by IRST or RWR
———————————————————————————
a 200 km. ranged A2A missile?…seriously, you know that the AIM 120 D AMRAAM has a range of what 45 – 50 km’s and that is BVR…so your proposing a super duper BVR x 4 range missile now?…..wow, in ONE post you cut your range by 500 km’s!…….some leap backwards eh?….and NO the Delilah is a CRUISE MISSILE not an A2A missile and used against STATIONARY targets….not helicopters, not against planes……GROUND TARGETS… it’s ONLY great feature is that it does not require the programing of the exact target location, but the general location and it can get there then find the target ( or so the Israelis say)…come on man….stop trying to use other weapons to support your pipe dream….
Aim-120D max range is 185 km , AIM-54 range = 200 km , R-33 range = 300 km , Ks-100 range = 400 km …etc., and read carefully again main objective = LO not range
mig-31bmIs the Delilah an air to air missile? For Anti-Radiation weapons this makes sense, since you want to be in the area when somethings begins to emit and either kill it kinematically or jam it. However dealing with an Air to Air threat is much more complicated. What you propose (700 nm missile with the ability to cruise) is definitely not going to happen.
700 nm is too much, how about shorter range like say 200 km? kind of like 2 staged missile but a bit extreme, they said Delilah can be used air to air as well so iam a bit confused( may be to attack helicopter)
mig-31bmManned-Unmanned teaming is something that is being worked on at the moment at least conceptually. There is little doubt in my mind that this concept would be the next big thing, although I am also fairly sure that it would be very heavily biased towards air to ground teaming just because that is where the big bucks from an investment point of view are going to go. DARPA is currently looking at this in its Air dominance Initiative (Manned-unmanned teaming).
I am pretty certain that in the dark these things are getting a fair share of the 15 Billion or so Annual USAF Black budget. I also expect the LRS-B to have strong investments in linking manned and unmanned and lead the way for this to become mainstream.
Even the SACM for which the CUDA is a lockheed proposal is one of the things that is being considered for investment. There is a multi-pronged approach that deals with weapons, electronic warfare, computing, sensors etc. As mentioned in the article, they got started around 2013 or so so we would have to wait a couple of years to see full fledged programs take shape. The RQ180 however is in LRIP based on reports, and the LRS-B should be flying hardware at the moment and have its avionics systems and sub-systems in some test-bed somewhere so from that angle there should be some solid dollar investment towards this challenge if this program promises to be (as what many are sensing) a family of systems from ISR to strike.
Israel have the Delilah already, so we probably have loiter AAM in future http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delilah_%28missile%29
The Delilah is an air-launched stand-off missile and cruise missile with a range of 250km. It can be fitted with a variety of warheads which can be targeted on both land and sea targets. It has a turbo jet engine that is able to loiter, allowing it to target well-hidden threats in addition to moving targets. Its maneuverability makes the missile ideal for destroying Surface-to-air missile threats. The on-board autopilot and INS/GPS navigation system allows the missile to perform its mission autonomously. A data link enables intervention and target validation
The Delilah missile is a cruise missile developed in Israel by Israel Military Industries (IMI). The missile is designed to target moving and re-locatable targets with a CEP of 1 metre (3 ft 3 in). Unlike a typical cruise missile, which is locked onto a pre-programmed target prior to launch, the Delilah missile is touted by the Israeli military as being able to “patrol” and surveil an area before a remote navigator identifies the specific target of the attack.
mig-31bmYou are one daft bunny, YES, the “tech” exists…but it is NO WHERE near advanced enough for your “idea”……..you just can;t seem to separate reality from theoretical ideas….
and YES, missiles, launched now, from within a SET range of perimeters do have a myriad of “seekers” to guide the missile to it’s target…but the missiles YOU yourself have mentioned are not “Stealth”…nor are they flying randomly 700 – 800 KM’s as your own post states, in the HOPE that they find a target…..Missiles now are fired AT a specific target, hit or miss……..but they don;t go flying around on a 800 km. “Tour”……
How many people have told you already..it’s NOT technologically viable, it would be cost prohibitive and simply a bad idea….
BUILD a UAV that COULD launch a missile IF it gets a target…….you don;t build a missile that would be ultra expensive and launch it in the HOPE that it may find a target….
anyway, I have said the same thing now for what 5 or 6 posts…….you don;t listen and you don;t want to , not tome ( and thats fine) but you don;t listen to anyone else either…..same thing with your “STEEL” Bunkers……everyone told you it was a stupid, expensive and wasteful idea…but you kept persisting and claiming it to be the greatest idea ever….like the LAST 100 years of wars that saw hundreds of thousands of bunkers built wouldn;t have tried it…..
I’m done….
Good luck with your 800 km. range autonomous missile…..
seriously you have problem with reading do you?
1) as i have explained the missiles is the idea for future not now
2) all air to air missiles can miss not just this particular missiles
3) the missiles is not fully autonomous, as i have stated before, it have 2 way data link and EO seeker, control in the same principle as SLAM, NSM, AGM-62, Gbu-15 so basically they are guide to target by datalink just like normal AAM, the difference is that they are slower but also more sneaky
4) the long range is not the main objective, main objective of using tuborjet engine is that the missiles will have low IR signature thus harder for enemy fighters to detect, evade, the long range is simply a bonus due to the fact that subsonic engine is simply more efficient than rocket in term of range
5) you said there are no Loitering weapon that cruise on the sky until they find the target but there are actually alot, for example : Harpy, ALARM, Delilah, Harpo
6) and among the missiles i have listed JSOW, NSM are stealth
7) also, not everyone totally disagree with my idea, different people may suggest thing that they think may work better, but you are the only one keep screaming, represent the idea in your own way to make it look bad, dont read any explanation (all due to butt hurt from F-35 thread)
mig-31bmWHAT are you trying to say?…over and over and over..you keep saying 2 way Data links………THEY are NO WHERE near good enough for that……you just cannot let it go can you?….
and YES, the USA IS the only ones that have Carriers “Groups”….and it sounds like using your own exact words that you visualize your dream missiles streaking in to kill US planes etc…because NOTHING else can even get close…..
repeating 5 words over and over does NOT convince anyone, nor “win” a conversation…..” EO seeker, 2 way datalink”….so, where are these super advanced tech’s?…..have you got them ready to go?…….give me a break….
tech for EO seeker + 2way datalink are actually available at the moment example :*GBU-15, SLAM, SLAM-ER, JSOW-C, NSM, AGM-62…. etc
mig-31bmI HAVE read everything…..it doesn;t matter…….IT IS YOUR FANTASY….it is NOT reality, it is NOT a viable concept…….hell, put datalinks to the Deathstar for all I care……it will NOT be viable……NO one launches a non recoverable, missile that may or may not find a target…may or may not blow itself up when it runs out of fuel and just randomly cruises the skies for 700 -800 km’s?…..
YES, I can READ…………can YOU?….how many people need to say the same thing to you…the idea is flawed and silly…..
I don;t have to yell to make my point…and others are saying the same thing…it is YOU that simply cannot grasp that your idea is flawed….Add whatever tech. you want to your dream…….it’s just that a dream…..NO ONE is making this…it’s just in your head…..get over it…
as it said at the start, it not a missiles available at the moment but for future, and all air to air missiles suffered from may or may not find, hit the target, non recoverable not just this missiles, and talking about cruising the sky to find target there are alot of missiles like that like the Harpy, ALARM, Delilah, Harpop so this is not a new concept
mig-31bmWhy so defensive Mig31?……face it…your personal dream missile will NOT work……NO ONE just launches a Missile and HOPES it finds a target……find the target, acquire the target and kill the target……
What AWACS, Tankers or Enemy Carrier Groups are you “launching against”?……..sounds to me exactly like you are dreaming about launching attacks on the USA…because they are the ONLY ones that have Carrier Groups…..
and your basic concept is flawed at so many levels it hurts………..
no they dont just hoped, that why the missiles need the EO seeker and the 2 ways datalink, it not to be fully autonomous
mig-31bmTHANK YOU , Obligatory. I couldn;t care less about thread arguments…really…and I still would say that I made a valid point, even on the F35 thread…simply that “Speculative and “will be” weapons and such are idiotic to include in the F35’s “abilities”….I mean, everything that I said was backed by others…the Gun pod is NOT ready, and the missiles that M31 was adding in where basically nothing more than paper dreams…same here……..just pure fantasy
If it was a UAV he was talking about I would agree…but his idea that the MISSILE ITSELF is the UAV is idiotic.
actually no, what you said wasnt backed up at all, you said the gun pod doesn’t exist but it did, you said f-35 have very tiny load out and i proved that it can carry as much as f-18e/f if wanted, you said SDB I dont have good penetration and i proved that it can penetrate as good as the 2000 lbs BLU-109, you said F-15 always more maneuver than F-35 and i proved it depends on situation.. etc in fact most if what you do was screaming your idea
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