Originally posted by Eric Mc
True and, to a lesser extent, the Pilatus PC-12 also has that “bits tacked on” look about it as well.

To be honest, I like ugly planes. They tend to have “interesting” characteristics and the stories behind them are also usually interesting too.

I agree that ugly planes are intresting that why i am glad to see that a Gannet will be back on the scene before long,i accept what people are saying about the Battle also,And maybe we should mention variants of Aircraft that are ugly as well.

The Skystreak looks a good photo.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DazDaMan
Pardon my ignorance, but I would have thought a loop would be more dangerous.

I mean, after all, you’re bottoming out at a speed higher than when you started.

Also, isn’t a barrel roll a manoeuvre around an imaginary axis, more like a loop but out to the side, unlike an axial roll? [/QUO

From what i have read from people like Brian Lecomber who said the main problem with doing a loop is not having enough power to complete it,The p63 fell out at top of the loop,RR spitfire did not have the power or height to complete loop,The reasons i have heard for barrel rolls being more dangerous is that often the aircraft loses height dueing the roll and can’t pull out also there can be loss of speed in a barrel roll also,which should not happen in a loop as you gain power and speed at the bottom.

Originally posted by kodak
Have’nt said anywhere that any of these guys were reckless and certainly not that “they dont know what they’re doing”!!

My original point was that from my memories and videos of ’70s shows, the display flying was very low – MH434, the Reds (partic the opening big 9 from crowd rear – duck!!), JP teams , Belgian Slivers (aaargh!!) Andreason BA4B all flew very low manouveres with little area for any error either pilot or machine caused. A lot made use of opening or closing the routine with a run over the crowd.

Times have changed and display flying has become better contolled but as someone else has said, theres a lot of luck involved if God forbid something does go wrong.

No, IMHO I would prefer to see warbirds flown sympathetically – by all means barrel rolls, wing overs, half cubans rather than full loops etc.
The proof is in the pudding – the BBMF have flown “cautious” display routines for as long as I can remember- without loss.
Throw in low level loops, multiple aileron rolls, Split Ss and we get problems.

I would say from what i have seen a Barrel roll is more dangerous than a loop and has been involved in many accidents including the Invader at Biggin,I don’t agree that Ray loops at low level but some pilots may do,Also the OFMC has a very good safety record sadly Mark was lost in a landing accident but the BBMF have had landing accidents too,notably Hurricane LF363 landing and fire
a few years ago,Maybe this thread should get back to what it was about?.

Re: Biggin Hill video

Originally posted by Steve 964
The video is copying ever as I write this

Made a point of watching again the Hanna/MH434 display and I think those of you who watch it will agree that although the straight and level is low,when the aerobatic manoevers are carried out there is always plenty of height and speed involved which prevents any chance of the aircraft stalling and/or dropping out of manoevers.You may also note that MH434 is always gaining altitude rather than maintaining or losing it when entering a manoever!!. Lets also consider that in the event of a aircraft/engine failure the priority would be to avoid any loss of life,but IF and only IF there is pilot error then who knows what may happen.
What do you think??

Steve

I have always thought that Ray flys his aerobatics higher than many pilots do and i have never seen him do anything that i would call reckless his flypast can be ulta low but then again he has done that since his Red Arrows days and is more than qualified at this.As to the Invader Crash at Biggin Hill the Pilot had asked for a practice display to do the barrel roll that sadly went wrong but was told by organisers there was no time to do a practice,the rest is history,But a lot of lessons were learnt from this accident.
Rays flying can not be compared to any of the past accidents in my view,pilots make errors as they are only human but i almost feel some people don’t think Ray knows what his doing when he displays.

Originally posted by shorts
I think the platting fog anoloy springs to mind. If the CAA are reluctant to authorise the lightnings and the bucc to fly what chance does the MIG have. It will probably end up going some where esle that appreciates historic aviation and the british scene will yet again fall foul of the CAA.
Why can South Africa fly our historic aircarft with no problems but in the UK the dreaded CAA raise its ugly head. Remember we are still waiting not only on heritage money to get XH558 into the air but also CAA approval not only for the flying permit but also approval of the workshops at Buntingthorpe to do the aessemlby it would seem that the only people who apprciate our heritage are outside the UK. Remember the last Sunderland flew to Kermit Weeks museum and has never flown again what a waste, it was a wonderful sight on Windermere but it left a;sas never never to grace the skies again.

Shorts

CAA do seem far too restrictive in what they allow to fly but i do think the Mig17 has a chance i never thought we would have a Seavixen on the curcuit but we have,I can’t ever see a Lightning getting approval to fly in UK though and theres so many stumbling blocks with the Buccaneeer too,The Sunderland situation is criminal i remember her flying at Biggin Hill i find it pathatic that the only flyable airframe has been grounded in USA,But the same happened with Mossie with Kermit Weeks too.

I found the show very intresting,I have never been a fan of him but do admire him as a songwriter,he was from a day and age where other Legends such and Elvis and Roy Orbison all who will never really be forgotten there music lives on,Its hard to see many if any Legends in the latest Crop of stars coming through.
The other thing that i did like from the show was it did not hide what he was like as a man and his rebel streak and his drug problems this all made him the song writer he was in my view.