IcarusThe Trojan war is NOT a historical fact. It was Titus Livius who created the myth around the city of Troje, mainly because of Augustus` whish to create a national story which would relate the destruction of Troje in 1183 AD, the foundation of the city of Rome in 753 AD and the transition from monarchy to republic in 509 AD. The `Ad urbe condita` is full of historical mistakes, so we can not just use this as a fact.
I take it you mean the Roman myth of being descendants of Aeneas’ adventures across the Med? If so, you’re right, there seems to be no hard evidence to link the Romans or the Etruscans to the Trojans.
There are multiple waves of colonialism. The first one indeed started in 1200 AD, Ionians, Arcadians and Dorians moved to Asia Minor. Halicarnassus and Cnidos were Dorian cities, not Ionian.
The Dorians would have arrived somewhat later than the date you gave. Not much, but alittle later yes.
And if Alexander was considered to be a Greek, then why did Demosthenos, one of Athen`s political leaders, called him a barbarian ?
If you just took an ancient history exam, I am thinking you might fail my friend.
Demosthenese (which was a politician….ie politically motivated) called Phillip a “barbarian” and not Alexander.
Another side of the politically motivated comments would be like those of another Athenian Isocrates, which pleaded with Phillip to set up a Pan Hellenic crusade against the Persian, in stark contrast to Demosthenese’s contemtp for him.
“…How could they (the Macedonians) prove themselves more philellines with what they did so as the rest (the other Greeks) would not be occupied…”
Isocratis Panigirikos, 96
Orator, 436-338BC
“…It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race…”
Isocratis To Philippos, 127
Orator, 436-338BC
The ancient Greek political dynamic is a hard thing to grasp.
Greece was never `united`, but most of the poleis felt very related (especially after the Persian War). Even the archrivals Athens and Sparta admired one others achievements. But Macedonia was ruled by a king, not by a democratic or aristocratic regime. Macedonians were not considered as Greeks, but Philippus wanted to change that. Therefor he invited many Greeks to his palace, including Aristotle, who was appointed to educate Alexander. Strange, however, Alexander did about all the opposite things Aristotle wrote about in his `politica`.
My friend, all of Greece was not a democracy. The Thessalians for instance stood in contrast to their ‘southern’ neigbours. Democracy was not a part of ever state’s structure, and thus, of course state’s that held on to Monarchies were thought sort of ‘barbaric’ and uncivlized in nature by the others.
Similarly, again I reiterate that it was Phillip who was called a “barbarian” by Demosthenese, and not “all” Macedonians. Also, Aristotle WAS a Macedonian dear, from Amphipolis, and not “invited” by anyone.
“I wish all of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily, in peace. All mortals from now on will live like one people, united, and peacefully working towards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country, a country where the best govern, with common laws, and no racial distinctions. I do not separate people, as many narrow minded others do, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is a barbarian. If ever there appear differences among you, then you must not resolve them by taking to arms, you should resolve them in peace. If need be, I will act as your negotiator.
You must not think of God as an authoritarian ruler, but you should consider him as a common father, so that your conduct resembles the uniform behaviour of brothers who belong to the same family. For my part, I consider all, whether they be white or black, equal. And I would like you to be not only subject of my common-wealth, but also participants and partners. You should regard the Oath we have taken tonight as a Symbol of Love.”
Alexander III (the Great) – Opis (324 BC)
Pseudokallisthenis
And Alexander did not export the Greek culture to Asia.
My friend, there is a reason why the BNew Testament was written in Greek, for the period after Alexander’s conquests is known as the ‘Hellenistic age’ for the express reason that he spread Greek culture/language and even religion to the whole of the areas he conquered. There are still Greek speaking peoples in modern Afghanistan (!) who claim descendance from his troops believe it or not.
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=alexander+spread+greek+culture&ei=UTF-8
Otherwise he would not call himself the new Persian King.
He was named Pharoah in Egypt. Such is the life of an all conquering King I guess.
Most Greeks didn`t like Alexander, because of this. Alexander had to kill many opponents who didn`t want this Persian King. Alexander felt more Persian than Greek, one of the reasons why he married a Persian, and forced his soldiers to do the same.
Alexander advocated a ‘mixing’ and ‘fusion’ of his culture (Greek) with Eastern ones (read Persian) and practiced as such. Similarly, most Greeks (read other Greeks) didn’t like whoever held hegemony over Hellas, be they Athenian, Theban or Macedonian.
IcarusThe Trojan war is NOT a historical fact. It was Titus Livius who created the myth around the city of Troje, mainly because of Augustus` whish to create a national story which would relate the destruction of Troje in 1183 AD, the foundation of the city of Rome in 753 AD and the transition from monarchy to republic in 509 AD. The `Ad urbe condita` is full of historical mistakes, so we can not just use this as a fact.
I take it you mean the Roman myth of being descendants of Aeneas’ adventures across the Med? If so, you’re right, there seems to be no hard evidence to link the Romans or the Etruscans to the Trojans.
There are multiple waves of colonialism. The first one indeed started in 1200 AD, Ionians, Arcadians and Dorians moved to Asia Minor. Halicarnassus and Cnidos were Dorian cities, not Ionian.
The Dorians would have arrived somewhat later than the date you gave. Not much, but alittle later yes.
And if Alexander was considered to be a Greek, then why did Demosthenos, one of Athen`s political leaders, called him a barbarian ?
If you just took an ancient history exam, I am thinking you might fail my friend.
Demosthenese (which was a politician….ie politically motivated) called Phillip a “barbarian” and not Alexander.
Another side of the politically motivated comments would be like those of another Athenian Isocrates, which pleaded with Phillip to set up a Pan Hellenic crusade against the Persian, in stark contrast to Demosthenese’s contemtp for him.
“…How could they (the Macedonians) prove themselves more philellines with what they did so as the rest (the other Greeks) would not be occupied…”
Isocratis Panigirikos, 96
Orator, 436-338BC
“…It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race…”
Isocratis To Philippos, 127
Orator, 436-338BC
The ancient Greek political dynamic is a hard thing to grasp.
Greece was never `united`, but most of the poleis felt very related (especially after the Persian War). Even the archrivals Athens and Sparta admired one others achievements. But Macedonia was ruled by a king, not by a democratic or aristocratic regime. Macedonians were not considered as Greeks, but Philippus wanted to change that. Therefor he invited many Greeks to his palace, including Aristotle, who was appointed to educate Alexander. Strange, however, Alexander did about all the opposite things Aristotle wrote about in his `politica`.
My friend, all of Greece was not a democracy. The Thessalians for instance stood in contrast to their ‘southern’ neigbours. Democracy was not a part of ever state’s structure, and thus, of course state’s that held on to Monarchies were thought sort of ‘barbaric’ and uncivlized in nature by the others.
Similarly, again I reiterate that it was Phillip who was called a “barbarian” by Demosthenese, and not “all” Macedonians. Also, Aristotle WAS a Macedonian dear, from Amphipolis, and not “invited” by anyone.
“I wish all of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily, in peace. All mortals from now on will live like one people, united, and peacefully working towards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country, a country where the best govern, with common laws, and no racial distinctions. I do not separate people, as many narrow minded others do, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is a barbarian. If ever there appear differences among you, then you must not resolve them by taking to arms, you should resolve them in peace. If need be, I will act as your negotiator.
You must not think of God as an authoritarian ruler, but you should consider him as a common father, so that your conduct resembles the uniform behaviour of brothers who belong to the same family. For my part, I consider all, whether they be white or black, equal. And I would like you to be not only subject of my common-wealth, but also participants and partners. You should regard the Oath we have taken tonight as a Symbol of Love.”
Alexander III (the Great) – Opis (324 BC)
Pseudokallisthenis
And Alexander did not export the Greek culture to Asia.
My friend, there is a reason why the BNew Testament was written in Greek, for the period after Alexander’s conquests is known as the ‘Hellenistic age’ for the express reason that he spread Greek culture/language and even religion to the whole of the areas he conquered. There are still Greek speaking peoples in modern Afghanistan (!) who claim descendance from his troops believe it or not.
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=alexander+spread+greek+culture&ei=UTF-8
Otherwise he would not call himself the new Persian King.
He was named Pharoah in Egypt. Such is the life of an all conquering King I guess.
Most Greeks didn`t like Alexander, because of this. Alexander had to kill many opponents who didn`t want this Persian King. Alexander felt more Persian than Greek, one of the reasons why he married a Persian, and forced his soldiers to do the same.
Alexander advocated a ‘mixing’ and ‘fusion’ of his culture (Greek) with Eastern ones (read Persian) and practiced as such. Similarly, most Greeks (read other Greeks) didn’t like whoever held hegemony over Hellas, be they Athenian, Theban or Macedonian.
Icaruspick up an old greek coin…..
the greeks of those days were blond blue eyed……
It’s quite clear you haven’t picked up much of anything.
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/
Where exactly have you picked up anything? Please don’t make yourself look more stupid than you already have Mr.Blonde.
Icaruspick up an old greek coin…..
the greeks of those days were blond blue eyed……
It’s quite clear you haven’t picked up much of anything.
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/
Where exactly have you picked up anything? Please don’t make yourself look more stupid than you already have Mr.Blonde.
IcarusOf course we know Asia Minor (Ionia) was populated by Ionian Greeks, which is why Athens gave support to failed attempts to free themselves from Persion yoke.
Macedonians were of Dorian stock (like the Spartans).
“…Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you…”
Arrianos II (Anabasis) 14, 4
Historian, 95-175AD
Of course people like Alexander cared much for for glory and riches than for such things, nontheless…
IcarusOf course we know Asia Minor (Ionia) was populated by Ionian Greeks, which is why Athens gave support to failed attempts to free themselves from Persion yoke.
Macedonians were of Dorian stock (like the Spartans).
“…Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you…”
Arrianos II (Anabasis) 14, 4
Historian, 95-175AD
Of course people like Alexander cared much for for glory and riches than for such things, nontheless…
IcarusOf course the evidence of Greek civilization in Asia Minor exists to this day at such sites as Ephesus (‘Efes’ exercise anyone?).
IcarusOf course the evidence of Greek civilization in Asia Minor exists to this day at such sites as Ephesus (‘Efes’ exercise anyone?).
IcarusIf this issue isn’t resolved soon, we could have a serious airliner accident on our hands.
Not to mention the close proximity and daily engagements between the two combatants might see us have a war on our hands.
Very serious stuff…
IcarusIf this issue isn’t resolved soon, we could have a serious airliner accident on our hands.
Not to mention the close proximity and daily engagements between the two combatants might see us have a war on our hands.
Very serious stuff…
IcarusLet them go and spend ALL THAT MONEY on fuel, man hours, air-frame hours, component stressing and maintenance wasting their time chasing Greek holiday makers.
Well Twilight, the Greek side must of course also pay money for fuel, air frame hours, and maintenance etc as the Turkish side must do because of these violations, and it’s not very neighbourly or respectful either.
The Turkish Air Force loses to many planes chasing HAF afterburner. Why do you think ONLY THEY engage passanger airliners.
Both sides have lost planes and good men my friend. Good men that didn’t have to die, who’s deaths could have been avoided if the Turkish side respected internationally recognized air and sea spaces.
@WACHENR0DER
is the airspace in question one where both Turkey and Greece claim is theres? or is this undisputed airspace?
Greece states that her airspace is 10nm, which Turkey recognized and did not dispute until the 1974 invasion and occupation of Cyprus. Turkey does not rezognize this and responds by breaking a bunch of ICAO regulations, endangering military and civilian aircraft while they try to got for pleasure cruises over Greek islands.
IcarusLet them go and spend ALL THAT MONEY on fuel, man hours, air-frame hours, component stressing and maintenance wasting their time chasing Greek holiday makers.
Well Twilight, the Greek side must of course also pay money for fuel, air frame hours, and maintenance etc as the Turkish side must do because of these violations, and it’s not very neighbourly or respectful either.
The Turkish Air Force loses to many planes chasing HAF afterburner. Why do you think ONLY THEY engage passanger airliners.
Both sides have lost planes and good men my friend. Good men that didn’t have to die, who’s deaths could have been avoided if the Turkish side respected internationally recognized air and sea spaces.
@WACHENR0DER
is the airspace in question one where both Turkey and Greece claim is theres? or is this undisputed airspace?
Greece states that her airspace is 10nm, which Turkey recognized and did not dispute until the 1974 invasion and occupation of Cyprus. Turkey does not rezognize this and responds by breaking a bunch of ICAO regulations, endangering military and civilian aircraft while they try to got for pleasure cruises over Greek islands.
IcarusGive me more reports of lesser known airforces! Please!
I would love if they did a spread about the SyAF.
IcarusGive me more reports of lesser known airforces! Please!
I would love if they did a spread about the SyAF.
IcarusHey Wings, what’s going on are we gonna keep Feds and McCarty or are they gonna jump ship?
What do you think we should do for next year? Lucky Luc is gone, which is good imo, and Stevie will sign for less money. How about bringing over Grigorenko? Think he’s ready?
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