mjrNice piccies and a very nice collection indeed.
interesting that people always manage to find something negative though. Im sure MAM dont need lectures about rarity of airframes, they will be well aware, and doing their best to address.
MJR
mjrlets just be happy that there are frightnings still about that go
weeeeeeeeee, woooooosh, roarrrrrrr……………………..music to the ears!
MJR
mjri second 320 Psi, this concoction is very effective, especially cost wise
.px24 is very good, and expensive.
Another product which leaves all of these in the shade is called SP400, manufactured by CRC industries. It is an American product designed for industrial punishment, Long term corossion inhibitor. Once applied behind panels, under floors etc, it never needs doing again. For outer skin its best suited to long term storage conditions. It is very similar to dinitrol, but not as unsightly or thick, it leaves a gold/yellowish, dry film, weather proof for 2 years on outer skins, and comes in various formats including pressurised spray cans. Denmans or Lockwell supply it. It isnt cheap though, but since it only needs applying once behind panels etc, maybe not so expensive in the long run.
MJR
mjrpathetic. So one can use ebay to sell twisted bits of garbage, maybe theres a section for flogging rotten veg! 😀
MJR
mjrWasn’t it Airwork that had the contract to support the RSAF and Kuwait Lightning fleets…?
I have a very vague recollection that ThunderCities Lightning guru Barry Pover, once worked for Airwork out there on the RSAF Lightning fleet….???
But then again my memory isn’t what it was….. 😀
Airwork did indeed maintain RSAF and Kuwait fleet F53’s for the saudis,etc until 86 ,amongst other types like the Hunters in Jordan, earlier.
MJR
mjrwebpilot,
thanks for that, will check it out, as you say, cant grumble if its free!
MJR
mjrMJR
You are doing sterling work on a Lightning that has spent a great deal of time outdoors. By your actions, you will see the aircraft in question returned to its former glory, and be capable of doing most of the things it was designed for. However, that aircraft has spent a good deal of time outdoors in the weather, and by your own admissions on the website, had sufferred a great deal, whether from corrosion in the wheel bays, or corrosion in internal components. How much simpler would your task have been if it had remained indoors prior to you getting hold of it. How much simpler would the task ahead be if it remained indoors once it was complete?
That you have so many volunteers willing to work on these aircraft outdoors is a great credit to you. However, please realise that if you had them undercover, your work would be simpler, and you would have more time to commit to other deserving causes.
Bruce
Bruce,
I agree with you entirely on every point, and freely admit that 671 had some corrosion problems, that have mostly been rectified, but they were ALL as a result of NO attention whatsoever over a 9 year period outside in a salt rich environment. With regular attention, there would never have been a problem. We were just very lucky that 99% of the damage was reversible,
I guess the point really is that, too many people attribute 391’s demise to it just “being outside” when evidence around the country clearly shows that you can keep airframes outside long term IF they are subject to ‘looking after’.
As you say Manpower is the key, and money. But to suggest that outside preservation is an airframe wasted as seems to be suggested every time an aiframe gets cut up. Simply isn’t true. Lets face it, most museums have no choice, or the luxury of Hangars, and yet so many aiframes survive.
MJR
mjrMJR – The American’s don’t have enlightened local authorities as you speak off. Visit many states and you will see pretty much the same level of preservation as we have in the U.K. They have the advantage of space but often in the case of museums like Pima they have to contend with extremes of heat. There is a greater pride in their heritage than maybe we have and certainly the tax breaks for preserving aircraft are
a great bonus.
As for preserving aircraft outside . It’s not a defeatist attitude to promote the construction of hangars to house aircraft and to try and get groups to take realistic
stock of what they have and avoid pointless duplication. In the case of your museum
it has come on leaps and bounds in terms of aircraft condition. I would suggest though
that if a hangar became available at some stage in the future you wouldn’t turn it down? The guys at Bruntingthorpe with the Lightnings do superb work. They concentrate their effort on what they can achieve and I guess you would possibly agree that they are the best examples that are on outside display. However this condition is a result of keeping them live from arrival which is a huge bonus. With the erection of the QRA hangar they are looking to the future and also putting in steps to become a year round attraction .
A museum I am involved with has a policy of not having aircraft outside. It’s worked marvels for the museum because it’s an all weather attraction. It pays for itself
which means more money to be spent on acquisitions and building expansion. Of course
not all museums can have this asset – however aspiring to it isn’t wrong.
As for aircraft not deteriorating if they are well maintained outside – okay you believe that but look at the amount of milky perspex around and I would suggest otherwise . Indeed speaking to the late curator of Southend museum when asked about the reason to close the museum he said that he opened up some panels on the Beverly and was amazed to find corrosion had got a hold inside a sealed panel. He couldn’t keep the corrosion at bay. Visiting another museum this summer I was horrified
at how intergranular corrosion had got a hold of a Hunter spar root. Some of this corrosion simply cannot be stoped in a damp environment.
None of this detracts from the work put in by volunteers – I would suggest however that any volunteer who doesn’t want to see an aircraft out of the weather isn’t telling the truth.
“As for preserving aircraft outside . It’s not a defeatist attitude to promote the construction of hangars to house aircraft and to try and get groups to take realistic
stock of what they have and avoid pointless duplication”
true, I didnt say otherwise, nowt wrong with aspiring to cover, we all aspire to that. whats wrong with having more than one example?
“The guys at Bruntingthorpe with the Lightnings do superb work. They concentrate their effort on what they can achieve and I guess you would possibly agree that they are the best examples that are on outside display. However this condition is a result of keeping them live from arrival which is a huge bonus.”
agree 75%, but they are just 2 of many exceptions to the rule. ground running from day one is a big bonus,since it hepls to drive out moisture, but is by no means responsible for their condition on its own. ground run with the wrong preservation program, and they corrode just as fast, in fact faster! airframes can still be maintained long term outside without running the engines, the ground runners just so happen to be the best examples because the teams are diligent about airframe maintenance and preservation.
“which means more money to be spent on acquisitions and building expansion. Of course
not all museums can have this asset – however aspiring to it isn’t wrong”
Absolutely
“As for aircraft not deteriorating if they are well maintained outside – okay you believe that but look at the amount of milky perspex around and I would suggest otherwise . Indeed speaking to the late curator of Southend museum when asked about the reason to close the museum he said that he opened up some panels on the Beverly and was amazed to find corrosion had got a hold inside a sealed panel. He couldn’t keep the corrosion at bay.”
They DO deteriorate if they are not adequately and regulalry inspected, in southends case the aircraft and canopies were probably not being maintained with the correct anti corrosion measures, covers or uv reflectant. maybe selective maintanance was required with so many airframes, or the knowledge wasnt there. This can be avoided with the correct measures and enough manpower. There is no excuse in the case of XL391. it was ONE airframe, FLOWN IN, IN MINT CONDITION. It received NO attention ever! despite plenty of offers.
where museums have many aircraft, you cant adequately maintain all of the airframes outside, the inevitable result is deterioration in some of them, which is fair enough, purely because of manpower, NOT because you cannot preserve outside, as many prophesise.
“Visiting another museum this summer I was horrified
at how intergranular corrosion had got a hold of a Hunter spar root. Some of this corrosion simply cannot be stoped in a damp environment”
I would suggest POOR presevation program was the cause.The damp environment was the catalyst, to a problem that was allowed to start or continue from old.
Intergranular delamination of thickset castings takes 2-3 years to take hold outside It was just missed because no one looked for it.
MJR
mjrwithout naming names, there are individuals on this forum that rant on about how futile it is to have aircraft outside! and that theres no point in bothering because they just end up as a dusty pile of corrosion. Its a wonder any aircraft in the UK get preserved with such defeatist attitudes. We dont have the luxury of enlighted local authorities as the yanks do, so why not just get on with it instead of whinning!
some aiframes are worse than others for wanting to return to nature, but its just a question of resource and effort. Im sure there are many aiframes outside that have suffered little over time with regular maintanance and care. No! I cant name them all off of the cuff, but as an example, take XR728 and XS904 at Brunty, 2-3 blokes for 6-7 hours every Saturday, and neither ship have deteriorated, both are in superb condition, very little has changed on them in 18 years of being outdoors. I wonder if the affore mentioned doom merchants actually work on airframes outside on a regular basis, or employ the various techniques available to stop aircraft from corroding outside?
391 is a pile of scrap because it was neglected by its owner! simple.
I hear a shout, “sea air” and all that flannel. What about the Vulcan at Southend????? Ive seen it inside out, and its superb, no corrosion! once again 2-3 blokes every Saturday for 6-7 hours, whom know exactly what they are doing!
If the airframe is looked after correctly from day one, it can survive quite happily outside. granted, if it stops getting attention, it will turn into a pile scrap very quickly out side, but lets remember such aiframes have taken 20-25 years to get like that with NO attention what so ever.
MJR
mjrEast Surrey do NOT have a fury.Wish people would check facts before posting rubbish.
MJR
mjr728 now sits behind a security fence to protect the site, and her from vandals. I went to see her a couple of months ago, and she’s hanging on (just!).
When I first went to see her the glass in the cockpit was intact bar the panel on top, so being a skinny so and so I threw my bag in and sat in the cockpit. With the nose pointing skywards and wind causing her to shake it didn’t take too much imagination to think what it must have been like.
Richard W
😮 You Bloomin Looney! you must have looked like a right basket case, sat in that tin can all on yer own 😀
MJR
mjrThats excellent news mjr thanks – will take some tarting though 😮
😀 he he….. indeed, tarting was a slight understatement!
MJR
mjr😀 no matter how many times you flush this one, it comes back to the surface!
728 does now have a new owner, it will be tarted up and will become a gate guardian to a new industrial site, pending plannoing. Thats directly from the site owner.
MJR
mjrYeah, I for one agree, this country has more than its fair share of NIMBYS (not in my back yards).
This kind of beurocracy makes my blood boil!
what a holes!, why do these idiots buy houses near airfields, then complain about noise etc? all of the soft panzies should be put on an oil container and dropped off on an island in the pacific somewhere, Is it any wonder that vintage operators are defecting State side? These are the same whinging lefties that stand in the way of much of our aviation heritage going under cover! What ever happened to british grit? in years past such idiots would have been told to shut up and stop whinning. 😡
MJR
mjrM, No we did not but we have rearranged to go up to Dux in May to do the deed, I could do with another pair of experienced hands if you are interested.
Avtur smoked mince pies? Sounds strangely tempting.
N, sure , give me a shout nearer the time.
MJR
Sign In
