mjrah, forgot you were over the pond. doh!
ok Allodine , as galdri mentioned, is available in Canada, it is an American product, the equivalent of UK Allochrome, this will only be good for keying the bare metal after treatment. It does however turn bare metal gold ( not real gold unfortunately!), hence why I stuck to wax oil, if your are wanting to preserve original.
you basically need a phoshor based solution of some sort though, you can paint it on, and wash of after a couple of minutes. Do you have a product calld Alltrans in Canada, its a rust and scale remover, again a phosphor solution 35% I think. that would be suitable too.
I’m sure deoxidine is available in Canada, Light Aero do ship world wide.
Failing that, you would be surprised how effective fresh Coca Cola is for removing corrosion from ferrous surfaces.
MJR
mjrok, thats good, not too exotic.
well here goes, I’ll try to cover all the bases.
Magnesium alloy is a little more tricky to sort without ruining it. The quickest way to treat it for good (assuming it isn’t paper thin) is with a phosforic solution, or a product called de-oxidine 202 ( which you can buy from Light Aero supplies) say 50-70% proof, this will kill any corrosion on the steel, as well as the aluminium rivets and aluminium stringer. Phosphoric acid isn’t readily available, so your best bet is to purchase a product called, Jenolite ( which is 40% phosphoric solution), a jelly like susbstance, which I think you can still get from a good auto supplier. Deoxidine is about 80 quid a litre, so a tad expensive for a one off job.
Make sure the piece is clean to start, ie de-grease it first. Apply the jelly, and leave until the corossion goes dark grey or black. Clean alloy will go grey. Wash it all off with clean cold water and blo dry it. If you are going to paint, put a coat of Acid chromate etch on ( something like Upol acid 8) if not, ie, you want to leave bare metal, and unaltered, Inhibit the piece once dry, with clear wax oil, mixed with WD40. about 60/40 in favour of wd40. Mix in whilst wax oil is hot. You need to inhibit the treated piece immediately once dry though, otherwise it will become contaminted and start corroding again, since you have removed any protection from the metal in the process.
This is a method I have used for a long time, on various parts, cars, aircraft etc, and the corrossion never comes back. I do use deoxine though, which is essentially just a phophorous solution like the Jenolite, just stronger.
Hope this helps.
MJR
mjrGaldri I would like to keep the original black paint that remains on the one metal part but the other has minor traces of interior green
Peter,
What kind of material is it? ie magnesium alloy, mild steel etc, standard alloy skin? The treatment depends on the type of material. It sounds as if it may be magnesium based if it is continually powdering up.
MJR
mjrSaudi Lightnings whilst at Marine Salvage, with cockpits ajar. seems mad doesnt it!
mjr
mjrnice way to preserve a lightning with the canopy open.
At first glance it does seem a bit mental to leave the canopy open, but leaving the canopy open half an inch or so is the best thing, if it doesnt get any attention, lightnings with canopies closed long term, rot out incredibly fast, if they cant breath. All the saudi Lightning canopies were left open an inch long term, (2-3 years I think) whilst at Marine Salvage outside, and apart from an inch of water sitting on the cockpit floors, this saved the cockpits, infact most survived in excellent condition, as they were able to breathe. Our own Lightning Zf579, arrived with about 5 gallons of rain water in the cockpit, but within 6 weeks was completely dry, and instrument power was restored, without doubt, leaving the canopy ajar was responsible for the cockpit’s good condition, since nothing was able to sweat.
As far as scrapping XM172 goes, find it hard to believe it will get scrapped, the Lightning community will step in before that happens. We for one would be happy to offer it a home and some well overdue TLC.
Not seen it close up, what kind of condition is it in? presumably a bit grim?
MJR
http://www.gatwick-aviation-museum.co.uk/lightning/mainsite.htm
mjrI remember flying circuits at Warton one day way back in the early 90s cant remember when. I happened to comment on the rows of ex-Saudi Lightnings lined up.
My instructor told me they were up for sale, £1 each but you had to sign that you would preserve them ,display them and not sell them.I considered putting my £2 dinner money in at the time and heading off home in an F53 or Twin seater. I dont think my mum would have been pleased.
sign to preserve them? Wish they had, that was rich coming from Bae Warton anyway, they couldn’t be ****d to preserve them, the state of them by the second year in ‘storage’ at Warton was testiment to that, they were absolutely mint on arrival 2 years earlier.
mjr
mjr724 even. doh!
mjr
mjrWhen was XR724 last run up, Looks like it is still in reasonable condition.
7224 was last run 3 weeks ago
MJR
mjrI’ve raised this question before when it was advertised on another forum – who covers the insurance for the lucky winner to ride in this?
God forbid something should go wrong, but live military fast jets can be fickle things, even in the best hands – and catastrophic failures are one of the risks involved here…. Would you like to be the family of someone hurt or worse in the event of an incident during this risky business? and without insurance?
And on a CAA licensed airfield, can’t imagine the CAA would let it run with member of public on board without insurance?Sorry to sound negative, but many years experience on military jets gives me reason to be sceptical
A risk punter accepts.
operator covers the insurance, as expected. You pays your money and makes your choice, no different to paying for laps in a race car or paying up for a flight with the Hunter flying club or Thunder City. All privately operated, by small teams, all risky……, all have occassional hick ups, all are a calculated risk, covered, which with pertinent maintanance , hopefully, never becomes an issue………..The nature of the game.
458 is subject to the same rules as anyone else operating at this GA airfield. oh….. and a leaf of CAA permit paper stating that you can pull the stick back at the threshold, means squat with millitary fast jets anyway, it isn’t a guarantee by a long shot.
not for this forum anyway, none of our business, its between the operator, airfield, and the punter.
MJR
mjrI cannot see how it effects preservation in anyway. The Lightning was dismantled in the space of week by a team of RAF engineers and enthusiast’s. The knowledge to move a Lightning by dismantling it has always been there. It might be a skilled task but I would wagger any enthusiastic amateur with a knowledge of how it’s taken apart
could do it. Certainly the Haydon Baille machines were taken apart before storage – the machine presented to Grimsby was similarily take apart.
The offer within the RAF was to use a circular saw – the members of 11 squadron were told how it could be done and got on with it. It has no bearing on what has been done in the past in preservation .
Absolutely, The saudi Lightnings are a prime example, The knowledge was there, and they were taken apart by chaps supplied by Haiden Baille, all enthusiasts, not RAF engineers, and were taken apart properly, to every last nut and bolt, without cutting a single bolt or part of the fuselage, despite the aircraft sitting outside for 4 years. They were also taken apart outside, not in a hangar. Moving Lightnings does not have to mean wielding a circular saw, There are at least a dozen chaps in the Lightning fraternity, that would rally round and give up time to take apart a Lightning to be moved,if required.
MJR
http://www.gatwick-aviation-museum.co.uk/lightning/mainsite.htm
mjrerrmm,chaps, for Lightnings sake, I would suggest PM’s, not a monitored forum, IPN=COER substance!
MJ
mjrI think having an afterburner fitted moves the aircraft into the ‘complex’ type category, and therefore needs manufacturers type back-up and support.
Kind of, but not quite as simple as that unfortunately. The Bucc and the Vixen both come under the complex classification, the bucc being especially complex, yet both are able to fly (or will be) .
Unfortunately the word Re-heat or after burn seem to be surrounded in a silly veil of fear and miss information within CAA corridors, not always justified, the Lightning being a case in point. UK attrition rates were high, however foreign rates were excellent, due to different operational circumstances and economics, yet its UK attrition record, played a big part in it not flying in the UK. Only part of the picture taken into account.
MJR
mjrThe airframe has been spoken for for a long time now, just logistics have held up delivery, it has been and is still being stored at Fairford, as Damien B points out is is going to a very deserving home and will be very well cared for.
mjrNice to see some Americans who don’t think that the F15 is only aircraft to stand on its tail and accelerate Home-ward!
Surprisingly, the yanks are always awe struck at the lightning, when they get a close look at it in the Hangar, jaws normally drop when they are given the performance specs, They find it hard to believe that the old tub can equal, if not exceed the F15 climb rate, in its standard guise, ie not stripped out.
😀
mjrHI all,
appologies for the website, I will escalate up the line. I do believe that our administrator is revamping the whole site.
422 is unscathed, as is the hangar. We and sponsors had a very worrying time during a 5 day comms black out, with Katrina, we had no idea if 422 was strewn across the airfield or not! NASA space centre next door was hit very hard, as were some of the neighbouring hangars, AALO hangar was blessed though, in fact the national guard used it as an HQ for 11 days, and provided a security blanket for us, at least for peace of mind anyway. Stennis airfield was basically saved by all the surrounding pine trees, which were all flatened.
As mentioned Katrina, wiped out all local infrastructure and manpower, infact several of our local supporters lost their homes and business premises, literally gone. Manpower has been hit very hard this year, and as such work on 422 has stopped, with myself and another UK team member going to Stennis in 3 weeks, to kick start work again, whilst our American counterparts struggle to re-build their lives.
422 is progressing very well though, with the majority of all subsytems now re-installed, and fuel introduced to the aircraft. No engines or pipes yet, as you can appreciate, 422 was taken apart in much the same way as the Saudi machines, i.e down to every last nut and bolt, so there is a couple of years to go yet, however she is definately well over the hump so to speak.
Dont hesitate to ask any questions if you require, rest assured the web site will be updated shortly. Dont know if all are aware but there are two websites, the supporters site. http://www.lightning422supporters.co.uk/
and the main site http://www.lightningusa.org/about.html. The supporters site is kept up to date far more regularly.
Regards to all
MJR.
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