JSRI’m not sure I was skeptical it would ever join the Indian Navy exactly. I was hopeful that good military sense would prevail over nationalistic politics, but, the proof is manifest that it didnt.
I still do not believe, for one second, that the private opinions of the Indian admiralty reflect the statement released thats quoted there and I never will. Vikramaditya has held back the cause of IN naval aviation at least a decade locking them in to STOBAR, and the same basic limitations they had with STOVL, just with a flashier fighter than SHAR. They, the IN brass, are well aware of this…as that ‘white elephant’ article demonstrated back in the day. The one thing thats undeniable though is that this ship certainly looks impressive…as any white elephant would! :rolleyes::cool:
There is that one French carrier and the upcoming two British carriers. These two countries have until this point larger budgets than India. India can only afford this carrier and its carrier wing. MIG-29K system export price is $40m.
Viki Carrier is remodeled with paltry sum of $2.4b spread over 9 years.
You start that long project in Western Ship yard with such slow drip of money. The price will be closer to $20b.
See cost example of Scorpene Project under French supervision in Indian shipyard or practically non delivery of Barak-8.
Rafale /F-18E naval system export price is closer to $200m.
low cost of SSN lease to IN as well as low cost of Brahmos system for Indian navy is another benefit.
Your simply suggesting India buys one super expensive carrier with no money left for fighters/ SSNs/AAW ships. that will make the whole navy white elephant.
JSRJSRHere is the company product card for the OLS-35. As you can see, it it nowhere near what has been reported in this thread.
1. The detected target is the SU-30, not a “stealthy” target.
2. The 90km detection range is for a rear-aspect shot.
3. The front aspect range is 35km.
4. Airborne range is a max of 20km due to laser rangefinder.
This is general information and highly likely understatement. see the Su-30MKI radar specification on manufacture site. it is very low considering MIG-29 size target from front.
http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:2011-07-18-12-25-58&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8
Detection range for a MiG-29 type fighter in 300 sq.deg. scanning zone is as follows:
– at head-on courses – up to 140 km;
– at trailing courses – up to 60 km.
JSRJSRIndeed, what I wanted to say, if China is peddling the J31 what will Russia offer? They may not use it but there is a market for low cost LO aircrafts. Asian countries like Vietnam, Malaysia etc won’t buy MiG 35/Su35 in the next decade. For Africa they can still offer Yak 130 in strike role.
You cannot create low cost LO aircraft. J-31 is more than 20years away from export. even J-10 reliability is questionable. Burma and bangladesh ignore it. JF-17 has 4000 hrs life with 8g airframe. Even that is so slow to export. First Chinese has to create permanent naval presence in and around africa/midlleast. Than create large fleet of transport planes that can airdrop weopons/supplies into desert tribes. Airtankers/long range fighters/bombers is another layer that provide assurance to leaders of countries that supposed to buy those weopons. I don’t see Chinese succeeding in that level of power projection so there is little prospect of expensive fighter export.
JSRThe RSAF operates over 30 Eurofighters today. So it would appear you’re wrong…. again.
wait untill early january for BAE earning outlook. operating 30 does not mean 30 are paid.
It was a product for which a contract had been signed and half the payment already made, when the contract was simply discarded and the customer told that the price had just quadrupled. Oops and sincere apologies. Fork up now.
BAE is in no position to impose such conditions on its large customers like LM or Suadi. so your claim of profit simply not exist.
JSROh dear oh dear. I take it you are keen to show your lack of knowledge about economics, engineering and anything to do with the aerospace industry. My you do give us something to laugh about JSR…
So you are going to bring up the Gorshkov saga again are you. Lets see how many years late and over budget is it now. It still isn’t in Indian service and won’t be for a fair while yet.
Typhoon is in Saudi service, they actually flew some over recently to participate in an exercise. The issue of negotiating another batch doesn’t remove the fact that they are in Saudi service and the contract obligations have been met for the initial batches.
Please do give us more to laugh at you about.
:very_drunk:
Ahhhh the JSR ignorance drinking game it never gets boring
Only 24 of the 72 are agreed and the contract is entering 7th year. There is no way to know whether profits are made of that deal. as EF supplied to RSAF are not that much enhanced or customized versions. There is no industrial or some special training benefit to UK from deal with RSAF. even the weopons is i think Iris-T etc.
http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/bae-warns-on-saudi-jet-deal-risk-1.1241813
Gorshkov is non standardized product where new MIG-29K got certified (lighter carrier aircraft has it own cost benefit) and is flying in IN colors. thousands of sailors and maintainance people got trained.
Its very questionable claim of making profits from JSF programe in UK where every thing else cannot make profit to country. think outside company specific.
JSRIf you actually got off your lazy ar$e and done your research on what the UK designs, manufactures and produces you wouldn’t sound like such an imbecile. So, do you care to make an incredibly large list of things in all sectors, ranging from musical equipment to some of the largest and best Warships afloat?
I have very good idea about UK but it does not mean it is profitable. infact UK has the most inefficient allocation of resources in World. JSF simply cannot be profitable for UK ( contrary to Vnod claim) consider opportunity cost. what does best ships mean any thing when your broke. infact with large budget/trade deficits hinder exports of fighter/ships/missile. as the customer country will think your not going to stand by them. see long BAE EF price negotiations with Saudis. This negotiations are now longer than Gorshkov saga.
JSRWhat is the investment? At $150 mil x 138 = $20.7 billion. [Plus $4 billion or so invested in development, non refundable.] And you get an aircraft that is still first rate even if not everything promised. Internal payload’s a little low and the range less than hoped for, but otherwise it can outdo most fourth generation aircraft at most tasks. And at strike/SEAD in heavily defended airspace, it’ll be unrivaled even after the Russian & Chinese jets enter the picture.
do you consider opportunity costs. UK has limited skilled labor. by employing into JSF supply chain it will forgo alot of other fields.
I haven’t included BAE’s North American subsidiary.
you cannot be assured of next 40 years. JSF production rampup is slow. Industrial supply chain in 2025 may not be the same.
The UK has the world’s second largest financial industry, with investments going everywhere and profits flowing in from everywhere. I’m fairly certain the foreign shareholders issue averages out in Britain’s favour (as unfortunately do the financial liabilities that go with it).
I highly doubt it is second largest financial industry. It is like including foreign subsidaries of banks
JSRWhat??? Weight is more important on smaller aircrafts then larger ones (more taking off climbing cycles). On the other hand, cost of composites on cheaper , larger series plane can prohibit theirextensive use.
for high performance fighter titanium is way to go.
Mitsubishi MRJ went from 50% to 15%. It took Japanese a decade to recognize that what Sukhoi already knew from beginning.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/aa09-mitsubishi-unveils-major-changes-to-mrj-programme-332045/
With the aluminium wings, the company moves away from its earlier aim of using significant amounts of composite materials for the airframe. The result is that the only remaining composite parts will be the empennage, horizontal tail and vertical tail, amounting to 10-15% of the total airframe.“Conceptually, this is a very big change,” admits Mitsubishi Aircraft. “Structural changes are easier and require shorter lead-time with aluminium wings. With an aluminium wing box, the wing structure can be more easily optimised for the MRJ70/90 and the stretch model, which enhances the overall competitiveness of the MRJ family.”
http://www.aviationtoday.com/regions/sa/MRJ-Sheds-Composites-Sked-Slips-Stretch-Offered_35042.html
JSRAnd who will pay for the Russian kit?
Egypt’s American kit is paid through $1 billion annual aid from American taxpayers.
I dont think $1b is that big money if it keeps .Egypt relations in good terms with Israel and general stability in Middleast. instability means higher price of Oil.
but we have to see who is going to fund this purchase as Saudi are furious with Obama.
JSRGo back and read the posts again. :rolleyes: I made no such claim; I said and I quote ‘there was no cut during the year’. And there has been no cut during the year. Its just you and your parallel universe. And again, don’t use military budgets and military expenditure interchangeably. They don’t mean the same thing.
Current year expenditure we will only know around Feb-March 2014 as what is announced at the begining of year is not the same as at the end of year.
I never asked you any reason for the ‘lack of defence budget increase’. It was just you rambling away.
some countries put defence and procurement budget separate.
Pray tell, how much ‘heavier’ is it?
Its demo aircraft at this point. so it is bound to get weight increase once it is certified with loads. also once F-18E production ends. F414 engines are going to be more expensive in so called 2020 period that you are referring for Gripen NG time line.
JSR‘We will’ do no such thing. This is the financial year 2013-14 which will end on March 31, 2014. The budget 2013-14 including the defence outlay, which has been referred to on the thread, was presented in February, this year. FY 12-13 ended on 31 Mar 2013. Please stop making asinine statements.
reread your claims. you made claim that Indian defence budget is not cut in past and all money is expensed. I show you just last year example of big cut. Wait until Feb-March you will start hearing about actual spending for this year.
Yes we went through this. I brought it up. Swerve answered. And you just kept on going. Talking about civilian infrastructure, Embraer, Eurocentric industry… simply spouting out whatever thought pops into your head.
when salaries and benefits are high. similar size defence budget you cannot afford procurement i showed you all the other reasons for lack of defence budget increase. I havent even went into Worldcup/Olympics etc.
Heavier engine huh? Typical.
Its a heavier engine than F404 and it is only used for demo aircraft. there is no reliable data of heavy strike weopons and heavier wet stations at this point.
http://www.geaviation.com/engines/military/f414/
The F414G provides 22,000 lbs. of thrust and was produced for the Saab JAS 39 Gripen Demonstrator, a multi-role attach and reconnaissance aircraft and was recently selected by Switzerland for the Gripen NG
JSRDon’t start fibbing away to explain your goof-up. It was the 2013 budget that was under discussion.
why not admit is 2012-13 budget that is cut. we havent gotten into 2013-14. (we will call it 2013 budget as 9 months of 2013-14 are in 2013)
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/how-14-000-crore-budget-cuts-will-affect-india-s-armed-forces-329024
According to government estimates, the defence budget for the current year, 2012-2013, has been cut by a whopping Rs. 14,000 crore and acquisitions of new weapon systems have been either put on hold or delayed. Defence ministry officials have told NDTV that the budget cut is the biggest in several years
Except that ‘less money’ for defence was never under discussion. The question raised was about how the existing defence budget was being utilized. But then again, you’re on a perpetual tangent so one can scarcely blame you.
we already went through. High salaries, pensions along with Euro Centeric industrail approach is the cause of lack of procurement. They werent in Soviet block. you have to admit that atleast Embarer can certifiy a regional passenger plane.
Its got extra hardpoints and greater fuel capacity. The greater payload on the other hand is by and large a function of the higher thrust.
As for ‘how can it be’ – Saab thinks they can do (having build a prototype), its customers think it’ll be done, no professionals have raised objections and the majority of the forum has little doubt. So honestly, your protestations, doubts and rants are just tiresome.
Extra hard points, greater fuel capacity, heavier engine all contribute to increase weight. who are the customers and what they care about such things as TWR and range. It is short range GCI control plane and should be treated as such. There is no 5 wet points in Gripen.
JSREither talk about military budget or talk about military expenditure. Don’t use them interchangeably because they’re not.
Also, they was no cut during the year, don’t invent stuff.
I already gave you the link of cuts for 2012 budget. It is very obvious substiantional cut was done last year. You can see from delay in signing BAE artellery, Chinooks, Apache, A330MRT etc. and further orders of C-130/C-17 still in limbo. I dont see signatures. Now it is your turn to disapprove it.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324590904578287341781117634
BANGALORE–India has reduced its defense budget for the current financial year through March because of the economic slowdown the country is going through, Defense Minister A.K. Antony said Wednesday
Most people understand that infrastructure spending does not come under the defence budget. I’m not surprised that you can’t tell the difference.
Most people also understand that if you spend more on infrastructure there is less money left for defence procurement & R&D in overall budget.
You mean you haven’t the slightest idea about the Gripen NG’s operating costs. Most other people realize that the NG development consists of only moderate modification to the very reliable C/D air-frame. As for being under-powered the F414 provides 25% more thrust than the RM12, the excess power being more sufficient to manage the ‘heavy EW pods’.
how is putting F414 engine, increasing fuel capacity to 3.3t and increasing payload. moderate development?. Even the non AESA, No canards, limited fuel and payload capacity, lower g, lower stop speed 45% by weight LCA is approaching 7 tons. show me some heavy load out of Gripen.
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