Sorry to jump in here, I am a bit puzzled, isn’t the Su-30MKI production line still open, and isn’t there still another 100 odd aircraft left to be delivered to India, meaning that there is plenty of scope for ordering Su-30 for Iraq as it’s very much an active production line? Plus as of date there appears to be far more Su-30MKI alone in service than Mig-29M’s, so surely from the point of view of lower upgrade costs it would be better to buy a modern Su-30 variant without Israeli systems than the Mig-29M which has only been built in small numbers as then there will be a bigger user base to support the cost of future upgrades? Plus according to Wikipedia (less than 100% accurate I know) India is replacing the Su-30MKI’s PESA radar with an AESA radar, so presumably Iraq could procure a Su-30 based fighter with AESA radar without too much trouble?

While JSR may well be correct that the Mig-29M’s kinematic performance is better, I cannot see any good reasons why Iraq wouldn’t buy the SU-30, so what am I missing !?!

PS what is a weight point?

Su-30MKI is different than Su-33. which is built at separate factory. and that fighter is not multirole and have lower TWR than MIG-29K. MIG-29K superior TWR makes it better fighter for small carriers.
MIG-29M is lighter version of MIG-29K. Its way ahead interm of AESA certification (which itself increases reliability and lower maintaince). Engine and airframe life is comparable to Su-35. It can also be upgraded with 3D TVC. i mean 5 heavy weight points. this capability is similar to Su-30. MIG-29M also share engine with Chinese FC-1. so much more fighters wit same engine can be inducted in much larger number quickly.

You did not pay atention: the F 15 and Su 30 MKI engaged only in WVR at Red Flag 2008. The guy talks about Cope India 2004 when the non-AESA F 15 radar couldn’t burn throught the powerfull Israeli-made jammers that the Indians use on their Russian planes.

:p :p :p

I highly doubt any one using jamming pods during friendly exercises.
Most likely explaination is un upgraded F-15C radars could not see MIG-21 at suitable distance.

You carry on showing your lack of understanding of aircraft design…it gets funnier each time you type out the same silly stuff!:D

what so funny about it. Aircraft with spine usually have more fuel and electronics space. see Su-34 compared to F-15E. or MIG-29K vs Rafale.

Nobody is denying that there is a pricing dispute over further Typhoon batches for the Saudi Airforce. That is different from saying the whole program is in a worse state then the Gorshkov refit shambles. BAE Systems have met their contractual obligations for the first batch and the type is in Saudi service unlike the INS Vikramaditya which is billions over budget and years behind with significant penalties to boot! Again keep on digging!:D

It seem you have very little understanding from manufacturer perspective.
Slow implementation of Saudi deal is directly impacting BAE revenues. more over it is delaying delivery to new customers see Oman example. and it is not contributing to new development.
while INS Vikramaditya is one off project of refurbishing 30 year old ship it does not impact anything else but all money has been received and experiance has been gained.

So now it is about arms sales to the autonomous Kurdish region is it. So back to your old tricks switching subject…sigh.

Why don’t you read the article you posted, Putin stated he is happy to sell to Iraq but not to fuel a civil war.

The problem is thise too issues are interlinked. South of Irak has more easy oil and free to market anywhere. Kurds have much less Oil and dont control the pipeline. so they cannot possibly afford such scale of weopons and training. and once this weopons flow through to Centeral Iraki government. they can overrun Kurdish region.

That the Mig-29 line is open is not disputed, that Iraq might well have a desire for the type is not disputed. I dispute the closed door deal made by the deputy defence minister and I tire of your statements about how Lockheed Martin can’t meet delivery targets for the F-16 one of the most successful fighters in history with a very mature fully open production line.

Keep digging 😀

This is ur opinion not a fact that this closed door deal. otherwise why they are pursuing it because it is there own interest. F-16 is most succesful fighter in the past it does not mean it will be in future. LM may have redirect workers to F-35 or other projects where US government buy in bulk.
MIG-29 line has this advantage that within a year after signing they can potentially get the fighters. which certainly no one from Europe can provide at such speed.

You know you are right JSR the Iraqi F-16IQ are downgraded vs base model Block50/52. But only in detail areas for example some strike modes deactivated and old block AIM-9M and Sparrow rather then AIM-9X and AMRAAM.

The problem is not only AAMs. but slow implementation of contract and lack of long range standoff weopons.

This is not unusual when it comes to purchases off the US and what they are being given is more then adequate to defend against the Syrian (who are rather busy at the moment) and the Iranian air forces.

It ur opinion that Iraq only need defend against thiese two countries..

As for a purchase in limited numbers, Iraq is already pushing forward with another batch, that is the nice thing about the F-16 Lockheed Martin can service contracts very quickly!

any sign contract.

As for an airforce numbering 300-400 types, interesting number what drew you to that conclusion? Why do they need it?

They need very large airforce as they are surrounded by two hostile powers in north and south.

I realise that as you must still be at school you probably don’t understand how these things work but that is a corrupt way of doing things. Sadly that is how things have been done in the East and West for many years. The Iraqi president and government should be commended for stopping this highly dubious process. I truly hope it can be worked out so we can see some Russian equipment inducted into the Iraqi armed forces. Again unlike you I have no problem with the concept.

Again more opinion without any facts. Infact Russia is pressuring kurds to make compromise with Baghdad. Now a days even fighters have powerfull ground survellence radars and add to that long range artillery like Smerch. battlefield can very quick change.

http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=398105
Sergei Lavrov called on the Kurdistan leader to continue playing a constructive role in the establishment of a non-confrontational inter-Iraqi dialogue for settling disagreements and achieving the soonest stabilization in the country,” the report said.

You make lots of nice statements about the wonders of the Mig-29, modern avionics, modern simulators and low maintenance. Maybe that would happen…who knows. What we do know is the Iraqi Airforce is deep into the induction process for the F-16 a type they have been keen to procure. A type known to be reliable, cheap to operate and widely supported. They have six pilots in the US converting to type and have just ordered two new simulators from L3. You are right buying US comes with restrictions BUT what they are getting is proven and more then adequate for their regional defence needs. You make many sweeping statements about US parts restrictions but rather ignore the dire reputation Russia has for providing spares in a commercial sense for their fighters in recent years.

Iraki airforce will be much bigger than few F-16s which may not show up when it is needed. Russia has excellent reputation for parts supply. See refurbishing/reengining IL-76 for China. second batch of MIG-29K delivery to India.

Oh dear oh dear! Events have rather proven the acting defence minister over stretched himself your bluster doesn’t change that. As I KEEP ON SAYING I have no problem with Iraq buying Russian, I think it makes good sense! I just question this particular $4.2 billion deal and the logic of buying a single fighter type the Mig-29. If they do buy the Mig-29 it is no skin off my nose, it will make future editions of AFM more interesting!

frankly $4.2b is small amount for such large purchase. I believe training, parts and weopons will separate than capital expenditure.

So when you are shown to be coming up with silly ill conceived bluster you switch to the childish attack and bring up the Saudi Typhoon deal… kel surprise! OK lets talk about the Saudi Typhoon deal and BAE Systems vs the Goshkov saga. Errrrr let me see has the Goshkov finished acceptance trials and been inducted into the Indian navy? Is it not running years and billions over time and schedule? Now lets see about Saudi Typhoons. 24 delivered and in service, 48 on order. Negotiations on further batches being negotiated. The major delay so far is the switch of production back to the UK because Saudi Arabia doesn’t have the local skills base to assemble fast jets. Lack of skilled workers in Saudi Arabia is hardly BAE Systems fault and their ability to switch production back so quickly is to be commended. So hardly in a worse state then Gorshkov saga.

Actually BAE deal is much worse than Gorskov saga. All financial matters regarding Gorskov are settled. and Russia got valuable experiance in Aircraft carrier operations and certifiying new multirole MIG-29K.
BAE deal is price dispute. so there is only payment for 24 aircraft after 6 years. and those 24 aircrafts are standard not some specially developed version. so no new learning experiance. It is BAE fault of not knowing the skill levels of Saudi despite been in that country for 50 years in business. now it want to renegotiate at higher price.

I jump on this topic JSR because interests me, I am genuinally interested in Iraq buying all sorts of stuff from all over the world. It makes for more interesting things to read about. Correcting your childish, ill thought out nationalistic posts is part of the fun.

I didnot say you should not participate in this topic but atleast some background home work why it needs all those weopons.

Big losers seem to be europeans… Eurocopter has a permanent stand at the Iraqi Army Aviation HQ (they are there nearly every week), but so far have sold just some EC-635s and trying to sell some EC-725s (for the upcoming VIP squadron) and some AS-565s for the coastal duties…

Europeans will ultimately be big loser as rest of EU economic goes down and Germanic economic depends more and more on Russia/China. alot of military related export contracts will be embargoed where those two countries have interest.. see Taiwan example or Syria. where Germany is major hinderance.

Well the proof is the fact that the Iraqi president cut the deal and said it wasn’t done with full consultation of the rest of the government or the military. I agree there is probably an American bias in some quarters but doesn’t change the rather strange process of procurement.

So you have no problem with procurement processes made without any clear tender or set of requirements. If they intended a single source selection a requirement is usually published to allow oversight and ensure the deal is free from corruption.

I agree that Western and Arab defence deals are rich in corrupt practices but the fact is in recent years this has been clamped down on. For the former Iraqi defence minister to go to Russia and negotiate a $4.5 billion dollar deal with little to no oversight and the excuse is given that they have “Shared long term interests” stinks to high heaven.

Look I think Iraq would be well served buying from Russia in areas like helicopters, Radar, GBAD, patrol boats and IFV. I do rather scratch my head at buying the Mig-29 when they are already procuring F-16 and L159. The Iraqi air force will have its hands full for a number of years inducting those regardless of looking beyond at further types. The argument that they have prior experience with the type doesn’t hold water considering the significant time gap since that was the case and the fact they are training new pilots and ground handlers on a predominantly Western (USAF) model. Iraq already has the first pilots in Tucson with the 162nd fighter wing training on type and they have an aggressive delivery schedule starting next year for the aircraft themselves.

see my reply in your own started Iraq helicopter thread.

Lets face it the then acting Iraqi defence minister went to Russia negotiated a huge defence deal with out any kind of tendering or oversight from the rest of the government of military. I have no problem with Iraq buying Russian, makes plenty of sense to me but this deal was waaaaaay to dodgy to be allowed through!

You dont need tenders when you have shared long term interests. It is understandable certain political factions like Kurds will oppose it. but Kurds are landlocked and dont have that much easy oil relative to Southern Irak.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/22/russia-iraq-arms-idUSL6N0BM23420130222
Feb 22 (Reuters) – Moscow and Baghdad are going ahead with a more than $4 billion deal that would make Russia Iraq’s second largest arms supplier, Iraq’s foreign minister said on Friday, contradicting reports the contract was scrapped over possible corruption.

“I think that it is a question of the distribution of money,” said Zebari. “It is necessary to pay in advance and we have a political crisis. Our budget for 2013 was not yet approved by the parliament.”

Oh please :rolleyes:

If the soviets joined the Nazis then yes.

America alone could have won world war 2,

Germany could never mass produce or compete with American Industrial might.

And they were incapable of taking the war to North America 😉

IF Soviet and Nazi Germany had real alliance. than Germany would not need have larger army. and they could have access to much cheaper resources. and all the technical manpower and skilled labor would have been used in building long range bombers, nukes, missiles and first class Navy. it would have been different world. Germany even now is foremost industrial power.