JSR@JSR
http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=55262
So, You cannot have bought more than 25 Su-30mki with 1.3 billion in 2007 dollars.
As for seperate set of pilot training and infrastructure for MiG-29, they were already there since the mid 90s. We even have a comprehensive airframe overhaul facility for the MiG-29B-12 at Ozhar, the 11 Base Repair Depot of the IAF. Infrastructure ,spares stockpiling and the associated costs come into the scene when you are inducting a new type and the MiG-29B-12 have been operational with No 47 squadron since Dec,1987. What would we have done with the skilled manpower-the technicians,maintainers who maintained these beasts and kept them flightworthy after retiring the MiG-29 fleet ? The airframes didnt have many hours and it would have been outright foolish to pahse them out.
And yes the upg upgrades are running behind schedule but it is to be expected. There isnt a single ac project here in India which is running on time. Even the Su-30mki production rate at HAL OZhar have slowed down from 14 previously to 12 for the last 2-3 years.
IAF is a major operator of Mirage 2000. We currently have 49 of the Mirages and 61 MiG-29B-12 . And both the engine- M53 and the airframe of the Mirage 2000 are overhauled here in India in Bangalore.
When you increase size of order you get economies of scale. Look at follow up Algerian Su-30MKA orders 10 years later. I don’t expect HAL has same production efficiency as Irkut. I am sure there is different pilot training when cockpit is changed for MIG29UPG not to
mention this multirole aircraft training compared to airdefence fighter.
JSR100 million USD apiece – is that the flyaway cost, or does it include training, spares and support?
Msphere said that each Su-35 was going to sell for 28-30 million USD – how wrong he was…:rolleyes:
Export prices have alot of profit margin . I presume it will include pilot training and some spares but not weopons.
JSRMost of which retain MiG-29s in limited quantities of which an even smaller number are actually airworthy. Not exactly a fitting analogue to the F-16. Outside of the former-Soviet states, the only major operators are India & Poland. Four major operators for the Mirage 2000; India, Greece, Taiwan, UAE. (The F-16 of course is in a different league in that respect.)
Iran and Syria are MIG29. India is not major operator of M2K as MIG29UPG and MIGK are more than twice the number with extensive infrastructure . I have doubt about flight worthy status of Taiwan . Egypt will become operator of MIG35. MIG35 has bright prospects.
JSRYes and No. Needed more insurance about possible tech transfer to China. The idea is probably to merge DCNS and STX then to have a joint venture with Fincantieri. But i am only guessing. More on topic, noone noticed that EF is atm puushed against F-35 in Belgium?
my response was to Vnomod. he made stupid statement of Germany not spending 2% of GDP and still afford both F35 and that 5G Eurofighter with France. when even Japan cant do it.
how is France going to prevent tech transfer to China by cooperating with Germany?. doesnt that J-10 look like Eurofighter in flight characteristics and it was first flown at time Chinese were asking for Flanker license and barely able to manufacture JH7. importance of China for Germany is going to increase further as Germany put more export curbs on Turkey.
JSRIsnt that French STX shipyard nationalized to keep it away from Italian hands. It mean French are going to keep independent exports and will likely use German money to develop further. French already moving against Italians in Libya.
I am sure there will be pressure coming up on Germany to give up Eurofighter.
https://www.thecipherbrief.com/germany-france-close-ranks-security-amid-global-uncertainty
In a sign of things to come, Paris and Berlin have already agreed to a cooperation framework for the next model of the Airbus Tiger attack helicopter and for tactical air-to-ground missiles, in addition to trying to coordinate on procuring heavy tanks and artillery.
“From a French perspective, they want to harness that [increased German defense spending] as something that benefits both countries,” said Rathke.
JSRYup. F-16ADF-level avionics capabilities and fuel capacity in a twin-engined, much heavier F/A-18-size package, hence poor range range and much higher cost than justified by its performance
F16 simply dont give the accleration and altitude for maximum range strike. plus less engine power and smaller nose for radar and EW.
MIG35 loaded performance will be far better and twin engine F-16 internal fuel capacity further reduced. when battlespace get more complex the twin seat and twin engine fighter advantage increase.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201707171055604530-russia-airshow-mig-35-fighter-jet/
The MiG-35 is armed with a 30-mm cannon and carries 1,500 rounds of ammunition. It can carry up to 7,000 kg of payload on ten external pylons.
JSRWe decided to undertake a deep modernisation of our vanilla MiG-29B12 because almost each and every airframe had around 1500-1800 hours left in them. The modernisation also consisted of a thorough SLEP , re-enging of the entire fleet with brand new RD-33ser3M engines besides the usual radar,IRST ,avionics and other stuff. The entire upgrade costs a paltry 964 mil USD which is rather cheap considering new engines, a 950 ltr conformal fuel tank ,etc.
An interesting aspect of the upgrade is the new unified Radar warner jammer suite. DARE acted as a systems integrator for this ECM suite. It consists of the ELT-568 suite from Elettronica besides a new digital Tarang RWR. The Elt-568 has aesa based rf jammers which are produced here in India thru a JV with Alpha Electronics. A variant of the ELT-568 forms a part of the Praetorian Ew suite of the Eurofighte
$964m in early 2008 dollars and it does not include engines which are also in 2007 dollars. MIG-29 need separate set of pilot training and infrastructure and upgrades takes way longer than buy new Su-30MKI from production line. I bet $1.3b in 2007 could have given extra 40 Su-30MKI.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/hal-to-licence-produce-klimov-rd-33-engines-as-part-of-india39s-275m-in-deals-for-mig-29-208941/
Under the agreements, which were expected to be finalised during negotiations with Russia’s Rosoboronexport sales organisation last week, the Chernyshev Machine-building plant – part of Russia’s RSK MiG – will supply 20 RD-33 engines to India from early 2007 under a $25 million deal
http://klimov.ru/en/media/news/?ELEMENT_ID=276
On January 24, 2007 Russian Defense Minister, Vice-Prime Minister Sergey Ivanov signed a contract on license production of RD-33 series 3 engines in India. Klimov JSC, being the designer of the engine, has been defined as the head enterprise on supply of the design documents. The contract worth of 250 million US dollars provides the production of 120 upgraded RD-33 engines with increased service life at the base of HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) Indian Corporation. In addition to the design documents supply Klimov JSC will provide Indian partners with the maintenance and consulting support.
JSRGermany hasn’t designed a fighter jet in-house for decades. Your lamentations about preserving domestic capabilities are about 70 years too late.
Meanwhile, the mooted project with France should provide a level of participation roughly equivalent to the Eurofighter program. Selecting the F-35 to replaced their ageing Tornados (just as UK & Italy are doing) loses them nothing.
Lose them nothing ?. Germany need France more than it need US.
Germany is not Japan which can only afford 40 F35 over 10 year period . I have no doubt EU military designed and managed by France . France has its own export relationships that it need to preserve and it’s also related to Airbus.
JSRhow do you know MIG-29 is not cheaper to operate?. India which is always money pinching could have boughh 30 Su-30MKI from local production than upgrading 64 MIG-29. MIG-35 decrease cost further and it is from separate industrial chain than Flanker.
JSRRussia is hardly impressed by German money or technology.
so it keep ignoring it untill the next generation Russian weopons deployed. Those systems can’t be developed in EU .
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-siemens-ruling-idUSKCN1B00IR
Russian court rejects Siemens’ plea to seize its turbines in Crimea
JSRXman has highlighted a couple of very valid points though, how much further development will there be if Rafale has to compete with a future European fighter, which will likely cost somewhere between US$20-30 billion to develop in todays dollars. If Germany does invest in F-35, and clearly General Lanata sees this as a possibility else he wouldn’t have mentioned it, even if just as a short term gap filler until a new project comes into service will reduce their haste to bring any new airframe into service, potentially increasing development time and subsequently cost.
Germany is now boxed between Trump demand of 2% GDP for NATO (aka US weopons) and Macron demand of more EU meaning more French projects financed by Germany. both France and Italy which has reasonably good military export prospects (Italy managed to sell Eurofighter and Frigates) will go there own way in dealing with Russia and Turkey if Germany does not deliver. Just look who pull the plug on Airberlin led to it’s bankruptcy . than look at Libya . Germany is essentially ignored. Germany simply does not have the scientific base or money to create EU fighter and buy F35.
JSRWell yes and no. It is also a matter of allocated(aviable) funding. Unless you believe JSR nonsens that VKS will have tousands of fighters flying around..
I’m speculating, in the short and medium term future, there will be some 200-250 Su-34 total and about 400 new Flankers. Russian MoD order small(compare to US) and try to stretch the production out in hope of getting export orders as well. That way they can have the Prod lines open as long as possible.
I have no hope of seeing VKS replentish their Post Cold War fleet size of Mig-29, Su-24 and Su-27S/P fleet with a 1/1 Ratio of new Su-34 and Flankers. Its simply not doable with Russia’s Defense budget.
In the long term future, depending on how the PakFa program evolve, we might see further Flankers and Su-34 orders. The current Su-27SM fleet is starting to get a bit long in the thooth.
It is not about extending production line but incorporating changes after Syria compaign. It will slow down the procurement .
JSRMiG-29 – in its final form, this is the “average fighter”. Same as F/A-18A, Eurofighter or Rafale. I agree that instead of a twin-engine fighter, it was necessary to do with one AL-31F engine.
It’s strange that Pogosyan thinks AL-31F is not reliable enough for a single-engine aircraft :stupid:[ATTACH=CONFIG]255350[/ATTACH]
Su-24 and Su-25 twin engine or single?. With twin engine airframe can be made stronger for repeated stress of loads over long period.
MIG35 nose also bigger and provide more power from two engines.
JSR[url]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/08/15/new-russian-jet-co…
Aboulafia, however, says Russia must create new technology, particularly engine technology, to meet reach the specifications it is claiming.
Engine technology?. That J-10 is flying with early 90s tech AL31 and from some of videos it is totally outperforming F-16 in flying characteristics. It’s much larger airframe.
“They still need to find the cash to fund the development of the complete version of this aircraft,” he said. “They’ve been trying for quite some time.”
They certainly don’t need find cash. Cash is only needed for import of external technology. in few years every one will find out who the rich country
JSRIt does not need a 2nd seat for C&C due to advances in datalinks & it’s avionics.
so pilot can fly and concentrate on computer screens for 4 to 6 hours. how much strain this putting?. Pilot salaries will reach multi million for such work and alot down time. with enhcement in radar and electronic warfare bigger size aircraft with twin seat needed for absorb that data and utliize it for whole group information . And that group can include guiding SAMs, billistic and cruise missiles and real time survellence from even tactical size UAVs that will be far more compact and stealthy in less than 10 years
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