So no weapons included, no weapons integration, etc. The CLS is said to be for 5 years in some press articles.

We get that you don’t like this deal….your next point of call are the senators and deputies of the Brazilian National Congress if you think the deal is too expensive for what you are getting.

If you can present to them the case that the deal should not go ahead you should certainly bring your views and report to the attention of the National Congress so they can allocate the defence budget elsewhere.

Do you believe Brazil should still have fast military jet capability in the first place, or do you think it is not required?

If fast jets are not needed by Brazil should the current aircraft (old Mirages, F-5 etc.) be retired at the expiry of their airworthy lives?

If you believe Brazil does need modern fast jets, do you believe any deal for replacement aircraft should include the capability to manufacture aircraft in Brazil to help build up an indigenous fast jet industry in Brazil and be able to export these aircraft as well? If there is to be Brazilian fast jet manufacturing should this include naval variants or not? Are the offshore areas and oil/gas fields adequately patrolled and defended by navy ships other than the carrier and therefore naval jet fighters (and future carriers because too expensive) also not required?

If no production lines be set up, should instead Brazil keep buying off the shelf aircraft from other countries like America or France etc. to buy instead Super Hornet, Rafale, or Rafale-M (Maritime)?

If you think the deal for Gripen is too expensive which aircraft (if in fact any aircraft at all should be bought as replacements for the old F-5s and Mirages) do you think would be cheaper than Gripen? That is cheaper both to buy and also cheaper to operate each year?

If your dislike of the Gripen deal is not about money, which aircraft in your opinion is technically better for the FAB (even though it will cost more to buy and to operate, for example, the twin-engine Rafale or the twin-engine Super Hornet)? This is assuming FAB are not considering replacing the old aircraft with the F-35 with a first day offensive capability because one could argue the F-35 might be a slight overkill for Brazilian current and future requirements within South America. Although, the first day offensive capability of the F-35 would be handy if they should ever decide to join in an expeditionary force to help the US on day one operations somewhere in the world (other than South America).

Finally, you say the deal includes 5 years support, no weapons, and no weapon integration. I know you have divided cost by number of aircraft but how much of the cost of the deal is in connection with setting up a production line in Brazil?

Which weapons are required to be integrated (other than those already certified)? Are you talking about say the Brazilian MAR-1? Which manufacturer includes the price of integration of new weapons specified by the buyer in the cost of aircraft or is it normal for to charge separately for each specific extra weapon not already integrated?

By the time the ship is commissioned in 2017, the UK should have two thirds of a squadron available (assuming the aircraft at Eglin relocate to the UK). The first full squadron will be available by 2018, if a second batch of 4 units is ordered next year.

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Vnomad, you are correct that a full squadron can be potentially operational by 2018 but I understood it was not planned to fly any planes off QE until 2020….unless this plan is accelerated or the USMC invited to use the QE to forestall any embarrassment of an empty ship

…..This would be a small example in my humble opinion to demonstrate the competence of those who had made the choice of the Gripen E/ F for the Brazil Air Force……

Maurobaggio, I’m glad you found at least one thing good in the deal even if it’s only the display! ;- )

You want to be persuaded beyond all doubt that’s it’s a good deal (like Swerve said you are thinking like a lawyer….you are saying prove it to me! Not a compliment as he said)…and you try to extrapolate costs with cost /simple numbers from other deals where there are no appropriate comparisons because for example the Swiss are not interested in developing or building a fast jet manufacturing capacity. As spelled out so well by many like Swerve, it’s the marginal cost of operating the aircraft per flight hour that is relevant in establishing its lifetime cost of operation as the other establishment costs e.g. fixed cost of building and annual operating cost of airbases, annual cost of salaries etc. will differ from country to country.

in my opinion you are missing the obvious and the big picture…..Brazil had no fast jet design bureau….no Mig, no Sukhoi, no Skunk works…..by setting up a production line in Brazil they can utilise the know-how of a team that has designed fast jet fighters since the war…..a legacy from Tunnan—>Lansen—–>Draken (I remember making the Airfix kit)—->Viggen—–>Gripen (as well as jet trainers and AEW&C aircraft). Easy and relatively cheap to maintain (to fit the Swedish budget), e.g. relatively easy engine change (underneath the aircraft instead of out the back) by conscripts in the field, designed to land in short and rough landing strips and on roads….good tick list for countries looking for fast jet capability without have a large pool of highly trained and expensive manpower and a limited annual operating budget.

India missed a trick by not going with SAAB but Dassault as partners are just as good if not better…..buying the M2000 production line 10 years ago when offered would have been the way to go after they proved their worth operationally with the IAF and with high availability rates….still Rafale offers an opportunity to provide a capability and squadron strength while waiting for fifth gen projects to be fielded operationally in about 10-15 years’ time.

But the know-how gained by SAAB or Dassault or LM or any other company over decades will cost and if you don’t want to pay for that just continue buying off the shelf and have the planes delivered ready made and don’t develop an indigenous aerospace industry and supply chain….it’s not about have thousands of engineers but teams with experience garnered over decades passed onto the next teams along with methods of working and production (that work) and a culture that has learned to deal with design and engineering problems and resolve them without starting from scratch each time and re-inventing the wheel every few decades a project is started.

When looking at costs in the Brazil deal you are not taking into account the capability to build planes or parts not just for Brazil but for SAAB planes worldwide including Sweden…..to take forward and develop the 2-seater (and sell it worldwide)…… and similarly to develop a naval Sea Gripen to protect the offshore oil and gas fields such as the Lula offshore oil field 250 km off the coast of Rio (largest oil find in western hemisphere in the past 30 years)….these are 20-30 year projects and as befits one of the largest world economies it should have the capacity to design and build in-house fast jets.

The problem as always is conflicting demands on a nation’s budget….this is a political issue for the Brazilian National Congress and hence the riots in soccer-mad Brazil when people were complaining about millions spent on stadiums for the world cup when people are starving….tell them you’re going to spend $10-20 billion on a military aircraft project and it won’t past muster…..spread the cost over 10-20 years makes it more palatable and within tight annual budgets used up in paying salaries and pensions…..the side economic benefit is a supply chain of small companies making high precision parts and providing employment (and taxes are paid on those salaries) and the opportunity to export to other countries in South America and elsewhere with economies too small to develop and manufacture in-house modern aircraft.

So I say great decision for Brazil and congratulations to SAAB for signing yet another deal!

Sleep tight Maurobaggio as you and I will both be long gone when 100-150 Gripen variants (including 2-seaters and naval Sea Gripen) are built just for Brazil over the next few decades and many others for export (including back to Sweden in the unlikely event if they should buy a 2-seater)…;-)

Moggy, you mean snipping like this leaving just the salient points?

Now that would make Johnny-boy foam at the mouth……[/I] bow down before me, say and do nothing to displease me, do not question my wisdom since you are not worthy, and NEVER make a spelling mistake in any communication with me and expect me to take you seriously[/I]… Pompous, self important windbag.

I agree this does make following threads easier without having to look up post numbers.

Snafu, keep fighting the good fight (and cheering us up mate ;- )….often I’m dying to write a reply but it’s not always possible because of work but invariably you’ve written a far better reply than I could have managed (and funny at the same time)….live long and prosper!

Tony, while your argument was extensive, very little of it made sense as some kind of argument. I’m not feeling inclined to nitpick it apart because quite frankly it has nothing to do with the OP. And you really misconstrued my comment on so much hate. It was aimed at your rant about Israel, not about the semitic civil wars.

MadRat

The death of even one Israeli diminishes me.

This is because I value all human life…we chose to judge people not from where they’re from but by the content of their character….we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.

I don’t pretend to have all or any answers…all I know is that sometimes things need to de-escalate so that people can see a way forward.

A better person than me has some ideas and he is Amos Oz, professor of Literature at Ben-Gurion University in Beersheba.

He was incredibly prescient because at the height of Israeli power after the six day war he wrote:

“Even unavoidable occupation is a corrupting occupation”.

The daily humiliation of Palestinians at West Bank checkpoints and degrading conditions arising as a result of the blockade has been well documented by Israelis themselves.

Amos Oz was one of the first Israelis to advocate a two-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict after the Six-Day War and he did so in 1967.

Oz wrote in 2010:”Hamas is not just a terrorist organization. Hamas is an idea, a desperate and fanatical idea that grew out of the desolation and frustration of many Palestinians. No idea has ever been defeated by force… To defeat an idea, you have to offer a better idea, a more attractive and acceptable one.”

The building of settlements in the occupied territories is illegal and the continued building of “facts” on the ground, including in and around the Arab quarter of Jerusalem, is unfortunate.

The Israelis and Palestinians need to decide how they want to live…if this is living….in perpetual strife with a war every few years, or is there be a way forward?

There are diehard extremists on both side who do not want to ever reach agreement and they are deliberately creating conditions to make it impossible for peace to be signed and deliberately drive people to ever more extremist positions.

Maybe now, almost twenty years after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, it’s still not too late.

It’s not for me to tell the Israeli government the way forward but I would suggest they throw away their hand book on winning the PR war (and give Mark Regev a medal for God’s sake for valour above and beyond the call of duty ;- )). Instead win the hearts and mind of people with an honest (by honest I mean not just go through the motions and say we are trying but have no partners to work with) desire to move forward genuine peace talks frozen since 1995.

Instead of bullets, someone like Daniel Barenboim with his joint Israeli-Arab orchestra (a true Semite orchestra!) is worth a million guns.

Barenboim has dared to perform Richard Wagner’s music…a step too far for many Israelis but he has reclaimed the music separate from the hideous views of Wagner.

It would be great to hear the favourite music of Deniz Gezmis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniz_Gezmi%C5%9F performed by this orchestra. He was a Turkish revolutionary active in the student movement in the late 1960s and (this won’t be popular) briefly trained by the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (which accepted Israel’s right to exist).

He was executed at the age of 25 and his last request was to drink tea and listen to Concierto de Aranjuez, Joaquín Rodrigo’s guitar concerto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9DOtuPLqNI

The gesture of Amos Oz in 2011 in sending imprisoned former Tanzim leader Marwan Barghouti a copy of his book A Tale of Love and Darkness in Arabic translation with his personal dedication in Hebrew: “This story is our story, I hope you read it and understand us as we understand you, hoping to see you outside and in peace, yours, Amos Oz” is worth more than all the Israeli nuclear weapons put together.

Rabin said we make peace with our enemies not with our friends….

…..at the time the PLO had a covenant calling for the destruction of the state of Israel which it abandoned after the peace treaty in 1993 and accepted Israel’s right to exist in peace.

The alternative to genuine peace is for Israelis and Arabs to keep fighting, locked forever in war forever because “you don’t know them like we know them (actually they’re just like you!) and that force is all these Arabs understand…if you show weakness they will kill you!” is a recipe for more of the same and driving more and more recruits to the extremist positions because that’s what you do when you have nothing to lose.

And so is Israel supposed to sit around and ignore the rockets and mortars being fired into their territory? Hamas isn’t going to stop just because they don’t get the reaction they want from Israel. Maybe food shortages would be a lesser problem if it wasn’t necessary to constantly check for hidden weapons somebody is trying to smuggle in. Israel is far from perfect in their dealings with the Palestinians, but Hamas has proven they aren’t interested in peace. If you’re going to condemn Israel condemn the scum firing rockets daily too.

I’m not certain what point you are making by bringing up Iran-Contra. Similar events have, will, and will always occur throughout history, even if we don’t know of it. Iran wasn’t “owed” anything by the US for the release of the hostages from Tehran. Those arms sales didn’t start until Reagan’s second term, long after the Tehran hostages were released. It was hostages from Lebanon that were a bargaining chip in Iran-Contra.

The earlier plans to rescue the hostages were very risky but Carter’s cuts to the military during his presidency certainly didn’t help prospects any. If you’re trying to paint that incompetent in a positive light, good luck.

Obama may be nominally Christian but that hardly matters when the only thing he seems to be interested in worshiping is himself. There are few politicians these days who deserve respect and he certainly isn’t one of them.

I condemn the firing of rockets into Israel and the killing of innocent civilians…..thankfully there is a cease fire and for now no more Israelis or Palestinians deaths.

The blockade in place for the past 7 years and blowing the Palestinians to bits using the some of the sophisticated munitions on Earth and most accurate targeting possible has helped the present Israeli government do all it can to drive even more people into the arms of Hamas (some might say the Likud government wants this because they are not serious about a peace and don’t want a two-state solution and only go through the motions every now and then to placate international pressure).

I agree with you that things like Iran Conta always have and always will happen even if we don’t know about it until long after the event.

The point is when the commander-in-chief & US government lie to congress and the American people and break the law it does matter (otherwise why bother with the rule of law….let’s have warlords instead). De-classified files released in 2005 by the National Security Agency (NSA) show the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a fabricated lie (2nd August US opened fire first, no US casualties, 4th August there weren’t even Vietnamese boats anywhere nearby!).

Yet a war was started that caused the death of 58,193 American soldiers (55,629 just in South Viet Nam) National Archives and Records Administration, http://www.archives.gov

And to top it all, it was all for nothing. The north won in the end and it wasn’t knifing by the back by politicians like RnR says. It wasn’t for lack of trying (half a million men) or firepower (more bombs dropped on Viet Nam than the whole of the Second World War) and massive use of chemicals like Agent Orange still causing misery and deformities today. If you were rich like George Bush Jnr, you could sit out the war in Texas with the National Guard…..Kerry to his credit did serve in Viet Nam.

I am talking about earlier arms deliveries to Iran in 1981 after Reagan’s inauguration, after Saddam invaded Iran in 1980 (fighting on behalf of the US and the Gulf Arabs) and not just the arms delivered to Iran by Israel in 1985-87. Iran was an ally during the Vietnam war and helped South Vietnam….when the mullahs are overthrown Iran will once again be a natural ally of the US ;- )

Even though Pres. Carter is more highly thought of outside the US, you can’t can pin the problems with the rescue helicopters on him!
The US has no dedicated team set up to do this kind of work and that’s why 160th SOAR came into being.

If you say Carter ran down the military, what about Reagan’s 600 ship navy? A bit over the top (no money to pay for it….just add to the national debt!) ….what was the point of Reagan spending so much money on re-commissioning great WWII battleships like the Missouri belonging to another time with its massive guns and huge manpower needs just to serve for 8 years?

Finally, I agree few politicians deserve our respect and most are self-serving. You are of course entitled to your opinion but alternatives like Sarah “one heat-beat away” Palin (thanks for this Karl Rove!), or Barbara Bach, or Newt Gingrich (definition of self-serving politician if there was one) don’t exactly inspire confidence compared to someone who actually thinks about what he’s doing and tries to avoid situations where US servicemen are unnecessarily killed for nothing more than politician’s whim to get cheap votes and popularity by killing a few of the enemy (like the botched Mayaguez operation by Pres Ford).

So much hate, Tony. And to be honest, your political beliefs still sound ludicrous. You sound like an apologist in some ways and blame Israel for a Semite issue. Not Jew, Semite.

MadRat, yes I agree there is too much hate between the semites (hate both from the Jews and hate equally from the Arabs).

We are on the outside and thankfully we are also not consumed with this bitter and visceral hatred between these two semite peoples, the Jews and the Arabs, that has been going on for centuries (you’ll be surprised by the number of Jews and Arabs who are not like this and you can find them easily if you look).

Somebody has to step in and stop both sides and halt this pointless mutual destruction and tell them enough! (actually “enough” is the exact words used by that brave man Yitzhak Rabin, former chief of staff of the IDF).

I do not blame Israel for a semite issue as they are extremists on both sides hell bent on believing and proving they both right….usually the truth is somewhere in between.

By continuing this violence all the current Israeli policies are doing are creating more recruits for the extremists Islamists…without hope what other alternative do they have if they can’t trade, export or import or have normal businesses and instead depend on UN food hand outs?

During this blockade even the daily calorific intake of the Palestinians was calculated to make sure they got just enough food to live…..do you not see any irony here with this blockaded ghetto a few kilometres across?

So yes, I agree both are as bad as another and we are in the 21st Century and we’re not in 1000 BC! Cooler heads and a rational approach is the only way to stop this futile and perpetual hatred that cause only suffering, usually to the ordinary man or woman in the street, while not affecting politicians (you know what I think of most politicians) who have their own personal self-promoting and self-enriching agenda.

It’s ok if you disagree with me but that is what democracy is about! (and that’s what religious nutjobs like ISIS cannot stomach).

I would say though that my views are in line with majority opinion here in Europe and on the afternoon Ed Milliband condemned the Israeli actions in Gaza as unacceptable even the conservative government issued a statement along the same lines…there is strong public opinion against this (just as there was against yet another unnecessary intervention, last time it was in Syria)….so feel free to call all of us ludicrous. Cameron is canny enough to catch the public mood and there is strong pressure within the government to take a stronger line.

Remember America is at its best while upholding the constitution and achieving higher and noble aims, like assisting people who are in trouble and the world is thankful for this genuine service to mankind.

Rogue agencies of the US government who break the law in pursuit of illegal activities and contrary to the constitution and national interest (and not what deem or they think that it is) are not above the law.

That is why Jonathan Pollard who was caught spying for Israel and handing over secrets is still in an American jail for espionage and treason and the national interest of the US and Israel, while it at times might coincide, is not identical and just as Obama did not wish to carry out the Saudi bidding to attack Syria (greatly aided by the vote in the UK parliament), he also refused to attack Iran at the bidding of Netanyahu (even though many senior Mossad officers came out publically against it).

Don’t forget the illegal sale of arms (including hawk and Tow missiles to Iran (contrary to US law) in 1985 mediated by Israel and illegally carried out by the Reagan administration (Reagan just plain lied to Congress) and by the CIA and other agencies. The President lied then and the government lied then just at they did about WMDs (Pres Bush admitted none were found….all those photos in the UN and the dodgy dossier were all a pack of lies). US agents selling illegal drugs and using the proceeds to pay Israel to illegally sell arms to Iran….you couldn’t make it up! 😉

To top it off the worst thing the CIA did (at the behest of Reagan) was to ask Iran (William Casey & George Herbert Bush, ex CIA director) for a delay in the release of the American hostages held by Iran so their early release would not boost President Carter re-election chances (who was unlucky when the rescue helicopters ran into mechanical trouble….this FUBARs led to creation of 160 S.O.A.R.). 20 minutes after Reagan completed his inaugural address as President the Iranians announced the hostages were released…perfect timing huh? In return for this the Iranians got Hawk and Tow missiles (illegally and against US law).

Iranian President Bani Sadr, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, US Naval intelligence officer and National Security Council member Gary Sick and Reagan/Bush campaign and White House staffer Barbara Honegger all stand by these allegations.

That it’s why Madrat it’s important not too get all your news just from one source, like American TV, but also try other sources and due to the internet it’s a lot harder for agencies to carry out actions against the law.

I trust we are all fighting for the same thing: democracy and freedom and government of the people, by the people and for the people. We believe in the rule of law and the constitution and no one is above the law (not even agencies who take it upon themselves to decide what is right even if it’s against the law and national interest. That only leads only to trouble: absolute power leads to absolute corruption and often to criminal acts such as the mysterious deaths of people involved in the Iran Contra affair and the deliberate delay in the release of American citizens held as hostages. The truth will out in the end and no one is above the law.

Tony, some of what you said not only cannot be substantiated, it’s plainly inconsistent with reality. Statements like Obama is a christian and story of the flood the same are at best superficial falsehoods. And the tea part comments are not only OT, but patently false. You would be in the same boat as the people you paint being prone to shonky politics.

The truth is there wouldn’t be any air strikes if political pressure from both domestic and international sources weren’t a major issue right now. The weak foreign policy under Obama has created a literal minefield for the US military to navigate as it fulfills long standing roles. ISIS has to be contained before it spreads to Israel’s borders.

Madrat, I agree with some of what you say but I’m sorry to say I cannot agree with quite a lot of what you say.

Since taking office Obama has attended church more times than Ronald Reagan did, but less times than George Bush did!

Every time he attends a church (a Christian one by the way!) it’s in the public domain. Do you like djcross believe he is a secretly a Muslim and he visits mosques or temples at night and as Fedaykin says think he might even be the Antichrist! ;- ))))

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/05/keeping-tabs-on-obama-s-church-attendance-is-no-way-to-gauge-his-faith.html

When Kilo said a few weeks he couldn’t read some of the stuff in this international forum, my reply to him is that is not surprising if his only source of news is American TV!

Watching say Fox News is like entering an alternative universe with, for example, no criticism allowed of the policies of the present Israeli government, right or wrong. Watching Sean Hannity (what a top, top presenter Bibi!….if that’s that the best you can do you know in your heart you’re really struggling ;- )) interviewing Netanyahu is like watching a car crash. Interesting that Bibi Netanyahu is worried about a citizen’s arrest (like former Chilean President Pinochet who was arrested in London) and being taken to the International Criminal Court because even he knows killing civilians and children is wrong.

There’s no need to kill kids on a beach with no one nearby but the international press yards away who saw the whole thing or watch Mark Regev (Israeli spokesman…you have to feel for him) tie himself up in knots to deliberately confuse the issue to say it wasn’t the Israelis but Hamas that blew up the hospitals or UN schools…”we are looking into this and get back to you” (they never will of course….hoping it’ll die down by then and everyone would have forgotten but at least some gullible people might believe Hamas were blowing up their own hospitals or the UN schools).

We might hate ISIS but killing 2,000 (mostly civilians and about 500 kids) people in exchange for 3 kids murdered (it turned out not by Hamas) does seem over the top and that is the public opinion in the UK, France and Germany.

When Ed Milliband (of Jewish descent) called out Netanyahu for this he forced the UK government to also condemn the over the top flattening of that god-forsaken bit of desert (lots of gas offshore though!)….no Israeli government has been interested in serious peace talks since 1995 when the brave man Yitzhak Rabin (chief of staff of the Israeli Defence Forces in the six day war in 1967) was assassinated by a Jewish extremist

(they’re just a bad as the Islamic extremists who at the same time started a wave of suicide bombings to ensure a right wing Israeli government would win and drive more people to extremism so there will be no peace….keep the pot boiling….they’re both as bad as each other….only one who can make things happen is the US (shame Ron Paul was the best president that America never had (even if he was a republican ;-))….trouble is Bibi thinks he’s got congress by the balls….never take things for granted is all I would say.

By the way, I don’t care if Obama is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, believes in the Australian aboriginal creation myths, etc., to me they are all the same: man-made explanations by primitive societies who tried to explain what they could not understand with supernatural explanations. I believe in the evidence of the Cosmic Microwave radiation discovered by US scientists, Arno Penzias and Robert Woodrow Wilson (for which they won the 1978 Nobel physics prize) that postulates the Universe is 13.7 billion years old and the geological evidence that Earth is approx. 4.55 billion years old and not 6,000 years old (there is a European Space probe currently orbiting a comet believed to be left over material from the creation of our solar system 4.55 billion years ago and it will be the first space probe to land on a Comet in October and carry out chemical analysis) and Noah did not live to 950 years old as stated in the Bible or Torah or Quran (all wrong just like the talking snake talking to Adam and Eve (they weren’t the “first people”!….DNA analysis suggests modern humans have been around approx. 200,000 years albeit with some Neanderthal genes….we can trace the maternal line through mitochondrial DNA… and do you really believe Mohammed really flew on a winged horse to heaven (and back)! Similar kooky suggestions such as “god” gave the land to Israel are equally difficult to swallow…..it was David Ben-Gurion (founder and first PM of Israel) who said “we have stolen their land”…what did you expect the response to be?….some of those in Gaza can actually see the villages just over the border in Israel where their families had lived for hundreds of years….there’s no right of return for them!

I agree with you that ISIS has to be contained before it spreads to Israel or anywhere else…..Obama’s election pledges was to bring the troops back home not send them on more adventures like Syria that will cause more problems (lucky the UK parliament voted against and stymied the whole thing)….have you ever considered Obama authorised the strikes against ISIS for mainly humanitarian reasons to help people on an open mountain without even water to drink and who might be murdered by religious lunatics….notwithstanding the fact that an American base in Erbil a few kilometres away is threatened by the ISIS advance.