GoldenDragonSorry for the basic question but somebody from Pakistan told me that the two JF-17s flying have the WS-10A engine in them. I never saw this in the press and wanted to know if might be true. To date I’ve read only it’s a Russian engine. His other statement he made was Pakistan government already selected the WS-13 engine for the future JF-17s produced again I never saw this in the press and wanted to confirm it. If his first statement is true isn’t that the same engine type used in the J-11B, could this be the first it’s out of China? Thanks in advance.
The WS-10A is a completely different weight/thrust class. There is no chance that the two JF-17s in Pakistan would have it as their engine. In fact, it’s highly unlikely that the engine would be anything but the RD-93. There has been no reports of any FC-1 prototypes flying with the WS-13 though we have news that the WS-13 is nearing completion.
The FC-1 is pretty much open to the public as it’s an export aircraft. Chengdu had said from the very start that it would fly with the RD-93 with a change to the WS-13 in the future. If it had flown with anything but the RD-93 it would have been advertised. Especially if it were a Chinese engine like the WS-13.
GoldenDragonThe Y-10 carried up to 180 passengers. The plane first flew on September 26, 1980. It made 130 flights and visited Beijing, Urumqi, Harbin, Zhengzhou, Hefei, Guangzhou, Kunming, and Chengdu. It also flew seven times high and hot to Lhasa in Tibet which is pretty good for any 180 passenger airliner in 1980 much less one made by China at the time.
This thing flew and flew well.
What killed was two things, both of which was political.
1. The project was initiated by one of the Gang of Four.
2. In the late 1970s, China was embarking on a full embrace of the West and the Chinese airlines wanted Western jets pure and simple. Most significantly, McDonnell Douglas had begun its partnership with China to build the MD-80.
Considering the time period (barely out of the Cultural Revolution), the Y-10 was no mean achievement.
This time around, there would be full political support. I wouldn’t bet against it. It would at least capture part of the Chinese market which is the main intent anyways.
Obviously, a Chinese airliner won’t be able to compete overseas with Boeing or Airbus (unless the A380 is an unmitigated disaster.)
GoldenDragonI think the Dauphin is Saudi?
Chris
As Flex and Tango said, it’s Chinese but not PLA. The People’s Armed Police. The emblem of the PAP (on the helo) is a red shield with two SKS rifles crossed under a star.
But it’s nothing like the “police”, even military police, in Western countries.
The organization is much more analogous to the old Soviet units of the Interior Ministry. The PAP has fully integrated armor and aircraft and many units were transferred directly from the front line PLA.
There are something like 14 mechanized divisions/brigades in the PAP which include armor (APCs), air assets and light artillery.
GoldenDragonFrom a Malaysian news provider.
http://webevents.bernama.com/ssig/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6981
Russia Denies Blocking Supplies Of Chinese Jets To Pakistan
BANGALORE, Jan 23 (Bernama) — Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov has denied speculations that Russia blocked supplies of Chinese jet fighters to Pakistan, its news agency Itar-Tass reported Tuesday.
“Russia blocks nothing – this is our policy,” he said on Tuesday in reply to an Indian journalist’s question. “In military-technical cooperation with any state we always adhere to one very simple principle, it’s even not our obligation, but international law – an end user certificate,” he said.
Ivanov, who is also the Defence Minsiter said Russia sells arms only if such a certificate is available and controls how it is complied with.
In general, political considerations and not only economic ones often matter in military-technical cooperation, he said.
— BERNAMA
GoldenDragonOther than Pakistan, I have not seen real firm orders.
That was what I was talking about. It’s 150 aircraft and it is not only a first order but a whole infrastructure. If the FC-1 does not get off the ground, Pakistan and CAC take a hit and so does China’s credibility.
The first China-Pakistan project, the K-8, was derailed by exactly the same problem. The fact that Egypt now has 120 K-8s and the PAF only a few dozens is a direct result of the Garrett not being available. For it to happen a second time is no minor matter.
How much of this “interest” would have changed their minds since then? The FC-1 is like a pedestrian little sister compared to the “sexy” J-10.
One, there is no guarantee that the J-10 would be exported beyond Pakistan if we judge how the Politburo had treated the J-10 (restricting it from even appearing at Zhuhai.) Two, there is still a major price difference between the two. Three, there is no guarantee that the J-10 would have the WS-10A before the FC-1 gets the WS-13. The initial WS-10As would go into J-11Bs. We don’t even know if the first J-10 specific version of the WS-10A is even made yet. Without the WS-10A, the J-10 would be in the same position as the FC-1.
Whatever CAC’s official main export product is, potential buyers are going to ask, what about the J-10?
Pretty much the same in the 1990s between the J-7 and the J-8II. One is more expensive than the other and the clients that China traditionally has opted for the less expensive one. Also, with Egypt and maybe Iran, China could sell the FC-1 as a tech-transfer project like the K-8E where China sells production lines and the buyer negotiate for the engines separately (like Egypt did for the K-8’s Garrett.)
GoldenDragonNice work! Congrats!
GoldenDragonGiven that the J-10 has officially, and probably fatally, stolen the JF-17’s “thunder”, whether it came out in late 2007, 2008 or 2009, will probably never matter anymore.
Whether the J-10 stole the FC-1’s thunder or not is besides the point. The problem is a delay will cost money because the lines in Chengdu (along with the ones in Pakistan) are built/being built according to a schedule. It also points to bad project- and risk-management in selecting the RD-93.
What’s more, the J-10 will almost certainly not hit the world market beyond Pakistan judging but how sensitive the Politburo had been about it. The FC-1 is the still CAC’s and China’s main export aircraft to replace the J-7 (which is still selling after 20 years.) The FC-1 already has firm orders.
Of course, all of the above is moot if the WS-13 is far along and a FC-1 with the Taihan is set to fly soon (06? makes sense since this is really a surprise prototype that appeared out of the blue.)
GoldenDragonA kinetic strike on a 4-foot wide object in space. Not with a proximity fuse but a direct hit on target. This is not something that could have been guided all the way with ground radar. (If China does have something with that kind of fidelity then the radar would be more exciting than the kill weapon.) The kill weapon must have had its own homing radar.
Basically an active radar homer (like the AMRAAM or PL-12) for space. Mid-course guidance from the launch radar and then terminal self-homing.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16707330/page/2/
“More thorough analysis no longer suggests that the target satellite might have maneuvered before the attack in order to line up with the interceptor,” he said in an e-mail. “All indications now are that the missile was launched toward the north and closed in from ahead and slightly to the side of the target’s path.”
The impact point would have been in range of radars at the Chinese main space center at Jiuquan, as well as of Russian missile defense radars in Irkutsk and other Siberian sites.
GoldenDragonChief of the International Cooperation Department of the Ministry, Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich said, “De jure China has no right to install RD-93 engines on the fighters to be delivered to Pakistan.”
They finally quoted an official’s name with the statement. Undoubtedly this will knock back the delivery date of the first eight limited series aircaft in 2007 no matter how far along the WS-13 is.
The production version will be a very different plane to PT01 we first saw three years ago.
GoldenDragonMajor news item.
http://www.aviationweek.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/CHI01177.xml
Chinese Test Anti-Satellite Weapon
By Craig Covault/Aviation Week & Space Technology
01/17/2007 07:45:59 PMU. S. intelligence agencies believe China performed a successful anti-satellite (asat) weapons test at more than 500 mi. altitude Jan. 11 destroying an aging Chinese weather satellite target with a kinetic kill vehicle launched on board a ballistic missile.
The Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency, NASA and other government organizations have a full court press underway to obtain data on the alleged test, Aviation Week & Space Technology will report in its Jan. 22 issue.
…
Details emerging from space sources indicate that the Chinese Feng Yun 1C (FY-1C) polar orbit weather satellite launched in 1999 was attacked by an asat system launched from or near the Xichang Space Center.
The attack is believe to have occurred as the weather satellite flew at 530 mi. altitude 4 deg. west of Xichang located in Sichuan province. Xichang is a major Chinese space launch center.
Although intelligence agencies must complete confirmation of the test, the attack is believed to have occurred at about 5:28 p.m. EST Jan. 11. U. S. intelligence agencies had been expecting some sort of test that day, sources said.
U. S. Air Force Defense Support Program missile warning satellites in geosynchronous orbit would have detected the Xichang launch of the asat kill vehicle and U. S. Air Force Space Command monitored the FY-1C orbit both before and after the exercise.
GoldenDragonI can’t see a possible opponent for Oz. This would be like buying a solid gold bathtub. Yes, its functional and pretty cool.
But in the end it’s simply overkill and way too expensive for any possible workload.
GoldenDragonChina has recived western and japanese investement via Taiwan, in fact great part of the western investment in China was via Taiwan and Hong Kong, the Myth of Taiwan and south Korea directly investing in China is a half truth,
Idiocy. Another one of your conspiracy theories where everything in the Chinese world belong to some westerner :rolleyes: You sound like Neo-Nazies who are claiming that Chinese civilization was started by Aryans because there are blonde mummies in Western China.
Now why in hell would a western firm take in a middle man and invest through Taiwan and then into China when there is hostility across the Strait? If Western firms wanted to invest in China, it would invest in China openly. This is idiocy.
The companies that took the lead in investing China were mainly small and medium firms from Hong Kong and Taiwan and SE Asia. They invested in China because they felt they knew the language, culture and the risks.
Western and Japanese firms had stayed away until after Asian financial crisis where currencies melted all around China while the Chinese economy still boomed. It was then the West began investing in large numbers. But it is still far behind Asian (especially ethnic Chinese) investment in China.
GoldenDragonJapan is probably the only country that could afford the F-22. There is almost no chance that it would be “just” $120 million unless they wait far into the future and hope the US ups its order from the current 200.
If the USAF stays at the 200 (180? too lazy to look up exact number) machines, the actual cost of the program is around $350 million per plane. $120 million is how much it would cost to buy material and labor to make a new plane. It doesn’t include recuperation (much less profit.)
If Japan buys it won’t be around $120 million each. The US doesn’t have the habit of giving wealthy Far Eastern nations major discounts (Taiwan for example, in huge contrast to Israel.)
Any deal for F-22 would probably see around $200m per plane including ordnance and alterations.
GoldenDragonInteresting. PLAAF airlift of material to the Afghan army. Interesting in that the Afghan military is currently playing host to a NATO army on China’s doorstep.
http://english.people.com.cn/200701/11/eng20070111_340385.html
At a ceremony attended by Afghan, Chinese and U.S. officials and soldiers in Afghan Defense Ministry, Liu Jian, the Chinese ambassador to Afghanistan, said that the Chinese government has consistently supported Afghanistan’s post-war reconstruction and provided assistance in its power.
“For six days ,the air force of the People’s Liberation Army have been transporting the 200 ton goods from China to Afghanistan. China attaches great importance to helping Afghanistan in its postwar reconstruction process, “he said.
Speaking on the occasion, Afghanistan’s Deputy Defense Minister Baz Mohammad Jawhari expressed his gratitude to China for its continued assistance.
“China always supports Afghanistan and particularly today’s assistance would strengthen and boost Afghan National Army’s capability,” Jawhari added.
China has contributed more than 150 million U.S. dollars in the reconstruction process of the war-battered Afghanistan over the past five years.
GoldenDragonThe DSI J-10 is not likely to happen at least in the short term. Too much wind tunneling may be needed to certify this. DSI interference on the canards might be more iffy, and J-10’s highly tuned aerodynamic design may not be as tolerant to changes vs. the FC-1’s.
Agree. Because it happened with the FC-1 there are those who think that it is easy to change to DSI in any aircraft. If it were then we would be seeing DSI variants everywhere since subtracting complication and weight are massive advantages.
There is almost no chance that the FC-1 DSI was added on ad hoc. Tolerances for DSI (as well as the enlarged LERX) in FC-04 were included in the design so that if they were needed or if manufacture was up to it for a reasonable price, they would be added.
I find it inconceivable that they would be able to go to a DSI machine in the third prototype from two previous conventional machines if the DSI concept were not included in the initial design.
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