GoldenDragonChengdu (J-10, FC-1, J-7) Global Hawk project?
GoldenDragonAsk CAC, they would not tell you that Pakistan is a co-developer. If JF-17 was really produced to PAF requirement, why is it that Pakistani side was so surprised to see some of the stuff placed in prototype 4?
Have you asked CAC? Whom did you ask? Quote the person who said that Pakistan is not a co-developer. Give us his name. Don’t say what CAC would say unless CAC had actually said it.
The fact is the FC-1/JF-17 is officially a joint project.
Again, this is different from the Su-30MKK or MKI projects. India does not own 50% of the Su-30/Su-27 design. Pakistan does own 50% of the FC-1’s.
GoldenDragonPakistan will have to depend on Chengdu for this work since the latter designed & built the aircraft.
It will depend on them for a time until the infrastructure in Pakistan is set up. This is the beginning of a whole industry for Pakistan. This will move Kamra to a much self-sufficient entity.
They dont have the capability to do so without substantial OEM expertise.
Fair to say for the immediate future but this WILL change as the Pakistani industry matures. Based on the relations between the two companies, Chinese companies will always be there as consultants. Pakistani companies, entities and PAF personnel in turn will consult the Chinese. Pakistan had always been a contributor to China because of its American-based air force and access to Western training and equipment.
Second, licensed manufacture can include substantial sops of the likes of design modifications & re-export rights.
The question is- what has Pakistan contributed to be more than a licensed manufacturer.
The FC-1/JF-17 is simply not a “licensed manufacture.” This is a shared design created by China and Pakistan from the very start. Even if CAC is doing most of the current development work, the aircraft design belongs to Pakistan as well as China.
It is intended to form a base for the Pakistani aviation industry. Another way to look at it is the J-11 and the SU-30MKI licensed manufacture projects are set aircraft variants with a set arraignment in components — engines, radar, avionics, etc.
The JF-17 is not a variant but a cooperative design which can have different engine, radar and avionics suites according to availabity and need in two separate countries. It’s an open ended design project that when set up in Pakistan will allow that nation to do as with it as it pleases. This is very different from the two Flanker licensed manufacture projects we mentioned.
GoldenDragonReally? So China can’t make more than the 200 licensed production J-11s? Even if the J-11 can be fully indigenized.
As far as the origional contact is concerned, the numbers are stated. Even though there are complete transfer of technology (excluding engine) resulted in not only assembly lines but parts manufacture at Shenyang.
The contract signed in 1996 was very clear. Two hundred planes beginning with full kits from Russia and leading to more and more components made in China.
There were recent stories about China refusing components for the last 95 aircraft.
If the J-11 is indigenized (such as happening in the current project called J-11B — which isn’t official) and built outside the contract then the contract was restructured or the Chinese might think it be considered a new product outside the contract (which means they doing it outside Russian support.)
I think the J-11B project is a combination of the two. A reworking of the contract that left enough ambiguity for China to build a far larger number of J-11s with probably no Russian legal action if those aircraft stayed in China.
The JF-17 project is different. It belongs to both China and Pakistan from the onset. If and when the JF-17 plants and lines are in place in Pakistan, it becomes Pakistani. Obviously, many of the parts at least initially will come from Chengdu.
The JF-17 was designed with the Pakistani aviation industry in mind. It was designed as modular because engine, radar, avionics and even FCS were never set items that Pakistan could count on. It was designed with far less composite pieces than the J-10 (or JH-7A) so it could be built in Pakistan. There is no doubt that Pakistanis had a huge impact on the design simply because it needed to be a viable aircraft that can built manufactured in Pakistan not just China.
The number of versions that can come out of the base FC-1 design and the numbers built of each versions that will be up to Pakistan’s ability to produce them.
GoldenDragonThe JF-17 was designed to form a basis of the Pakistan aviation industry. It will be entirely Pakistani once the plants and assembly lines are set up. The number of aircraft and versions that can come in the future is unlimited.
Pakistan can change and modify the base design in the future. They can make as many or as few any mark they want.
This not a simply licensed production where Russia grants you the right to build certain number of Flankers but no more.
GoldenDragonTo be truthful, China is the real key to the peace and stability of the world community. If China and India were to set aside their differences and learn to coexist, we could all make some real progress towards a joint resolution of the last serious problem in the world: militant Islam. All it takes is for China and India to sit down over some curry and Tsing Tao and we’re in business.
There is no war and conflict of note going between China and India. Even if China and India were to have the best of relations, the impact would not reach outside the subcontinent.
Worldwide, the problem is between the United States and China. The scare reports from the Pentagon and the constant push to call China “the enemy” are what’s creating the constant bad blood among great powers on the world scene. To the Chinese, the US sees China as an “enemy” as much as militant Islam.
Just the read Western statements on Chinese involvement in the Middle East, Central Asia, South America and Africa. They are pretty ugly and paranoid. Even Chinese troops in the UN mission in Haiti created hysteria on Capitol Hill.
So to many Chinese, China would actually be making itself the prime target of the US if it helped to solve North Korea or militant Islam problems for the US.
GoldenDragonMaybe a doctor can help, I give-up.
That would be a good idea, Sens.
Maybe a visit to a psychologist can cure you of 19th racism and this insane urge to insult every Chinese you come across by using idiotic terms such “nationalism,” “face” and “eastern way of thinking” whenever they give a response.
I also suggest you stay away from Chinese-related threads because they make your blood pressure go through the roof. Just friendly advice, friend.
GoldenDragonNot being ashamed about the lack of your own knowledge, that being Jewish is not related to a race, but to a religion at first.
Why should we care whether they are race or a religion? What does a list Jewish scientists have to do with you and Strevitel/Flogger attempting to claim the J-10 is the Lavi when the Israeli government itself denies it and when China has an entire different aviation infrastructure than Israel?
No people with a common sense claim to be a superior race after WW2 any longer.
Then neither you nor Strevitel/Flogger have any common sense.
If you had common sense you wouldn’t need to bring up garbage talk like “your eastern Chinese way of thinking”, “Chinese face”, “Chinese nationalism” and a list of Jewish scientists just to claim a plane that is made and flown only in China as “Israeli.”
Try moving to the modern world and look at the obvious instead of giving bull manure racial crap about Chinese people and “face” and Jewish people and their natural science ability.
The facts are these:
1. Israel denies the Lavi was ever passed to China,
2. The Lavi never made production in Israel and the US never made use of it either,
3. Israel has NEVER developed a fully Israeli plane,
4. China cannot produce an American plane like the Lavi. Otherwise we would see the F-16 in China.
Now try answering those without conspiracy theories and without going back into the 19th Century and claiming some idiotic superiority of Israelies over the Chinese simply because of our “eastern way” of thinking.
GoldenDragonGolden Dragon you are misunderstanding what i am saying. not all cultures have the same concept of what is progress niether all cultures consider life has the same goals.
No, I am not misunderstanding you. Your talk of different “concept and goals” is just another way for you to say Jews being superior when Israel had never developed a proper plane of her own. So how did the Lavi became such a super plane when all Israel had was the Mirage knockoff the Kfir before or since?
Where are the other Israeli superplanes? Are you blaming the US for stifling your supermen capabilities.
You have been doing the same thing for years. You have no interest in China and make no attempt to study or understand anything Chinese and yet you were at a Chinese forum making claims based on “concept of progress.” :rolleyes:
Sorry, in aviation, the goals of all nations are the same.
The Jewish people are one of the oldest cultures and one culture that has set many of the modern standards of what we usually call progress at least in the Western world.
And China which has given the world some of the foundation inventions (paper, gunpowder, compass, silk, porcelain, etc.) is chop liver? :rolleyes:
Yes, you Jews are supermen. So what does that have to do with the fact that the Lavi was never put into production?
Historically the West have a far more negative view of the Jews and we knew this particular view overpowered any sense of the Jews setting progress in the West.
Germany, the most technologically advanced nation of the West, was of the view that the West was infiltrated and slowly ruined by Jews. This view led to mass murder in the 1940s.
These stereotypical views, negative or positive are not present in East Asian upbringing, we don’t know or care for them. So why should I accept either one as an argument?
I just need to know how a plane in China could be the Lavi when the Lavi was not put into production in Israel itself and all five Lavis were accounted for in Israel.
Physically speaking the Israelies or jews are not different to any other human, however the Jewish people consider education an important aspect in their lives and science an important aspect of human life.
More talk about the superiority of Jews.
In order to explain the Lavi, you have put forth the other equally famopus qualities of Jews and those are the Western notions that Jews will betray all friends and all alies for money and money alone. That Jews will lie and not trustworthy.
In order to explain the Lavi in China you are saying that Israel backstabbed the US, its protector.
Governments are not suicidal. Israel denies any passing of the Lavi to China and the evidence is on its side.
All five Lavis are accounded for in Israel. The Lavi itself was never a viable design.
You are attempting to use both the ugly and the good stereotypes of the Jew in order to claim the J-10 which flies only in China.
I rather believe the Israeli government: the Lavi never went to China.
SIBNIA affirm they gave a lot of the IAI lavi technology, the US the same.
Again, Israel might have passed (American) technology to China. But the J-10 is not the Lavi. Just as the Gripen is not American because there are American technology in it.
Strevitel, you make no attempt to study or understand the Chinese or the Chinese aviation industry. Your replies (and Sens’ replies as well) are all based in this concept of racial and ethnic superiority. Your understanding of the Chines is based on nothing but stereotypes.
So just stick to the facts. Israel denies any transfer of the Lavi to China. All five Lavi are accounted for in Israel not China. And the Lavi itself is a failed project from a much smaller and inferior aviation industry compared to China’s.
That is all we need to know. We do not need yours or Sens racial talk on Jewish superiority or dismissive speeches about “eastern” ways of thinking or Chinese “nationalism.”
Just look at the facts and nothing more.
GoldenDragonFirst Jews and Israelies are humans like any one
Then why are you claiming Jewish superiority? Why do you repeatedly claim something on the other side of the world is Israeli just because you’re a Jew?
Israel denies any passing of the Lavi to China.
All five Lavi are accounted for in Israel not China.
You are basing everything not on facts but your assumption that the Jews are somehow so superior that even a plane that flies in China and only in China is Jewish.
The IAI lavi was transfered because IAI need to recover all the investment poured into the Lavi.
That makes no sense at all.
One, the money came from US. Two, transferring anything to China would make the fiscal situation in Israel WORSE because it would result in the cutting off of American aid.
Israel has the technological capability to build aircraft but was uncapable of financing the Lavi due to political opposition by the US and economic troubles.
If you have such an expensive plane that depended on American funding and aid then how in hell would China be able to afford it when it doesn’t have American funding and aid?
Israel is a small nations and has had help from the US and France.
A small nation that have a very limited aviation industry.
China needed to catch up the fastest it could so technology transfers were needed.
No doubt there were transfer. reasonable.
Israel denies passing all the IAI Lavi technology but not passing some of it.
Reasonable.
Conclusion: The IAI Lavi is the direct ancestor of the J-10, the J-10 has been modified to acomodate a new engine and fill newer requirements.
Idiotic assumption based on your desperation to claim the J-10 as Israeli and to enhance your feeling of ethnic superiority.
The direct ancestor of the J-10 was the J-9. That was the direct lineage.
The Lavi could not be made in Israel which has all the American standard machine tools and infrastructure available to it but somehow it was made in China? Bullsh1t.
There might be Israeli technology passed (or American technology betrayed) to China.
But how can a plane made in China made with Chinese, not American parts, be the Lavi? How could a plane built from entirely different infrastructure with a different engine in China be the Lavi and not new plane or a development of the J-9?
GoldenDragonSo I see. Your main point is to claim that Jews are superior. So the J-10 must be Israeli :rolleyes:
Jews are so superior that even a failed design like the Lavi that Israel can’t productize and which the US didn’t want (even though it is paid for by Americans) would somehow become a plane in China when the Chinese infrastructure was not set up to create planes requiring American parts and technology?
Then how come you supermen didn’t simply build the Lavi and induct it into the Israeli air force?
How come they need to lie to its friend and protector, the US?
Wouldn’t such smart people know that it is suicidal to betray your friend and protector for a few billion dollars?
GoldenDragonThe PRC will probably cut off some aid but not all. NK was never really a “client” state. In fact during the Cold War, it was more the USSR’s client than China. Especially after China came over to the side of the US after Nixon’s visit.
China could very well let NK fester. Japan and S. Korea getting the nuke actually affects China less than the US. China already has thousands of nukes pointed at it from the US (and most likely Russia.)
But a nuclear Japan and South Korea change the equation for the US.
The talks in Washington and Beijing right now would include a lot of horse trading with the US pressing for China to do something and the PRC pressing the US for something in return.
If China goes into North Korea to solve this, the US would most likely have to trade something over Taiwan.
GoldenDragonCool.
So your whole point in arguing the that J-10 is the Lavi is to ignore facts and claim the superiority of the Jews over other races.
:rolleyes:
GoldenDragonNot a canard-delta but a canard-swept wing from WWII. The Shinden.
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/KyushuShidenMain.jpg
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/Shinden/Shinden_2.jpg
GoldenDragonCockpit full of American systems? :rolleyes:
If China had the same amount of technology and funding from the US then yes, the Lavi could be built in China. But China is embargoed from American parts and infrastructure. So how could the Chinese made use of the Lavi design? Does the Lavi design magically create American subsystems and parts that you see in those pretty pictures?
Sorry Strevitel.
You are so desperate to call the J-10 an Israeli plane that you refuse to see that the Lavi is a failed plane in Israel which Israel never put into production.
That the US never made use of the design even though the Lavi was funded by Americans and was created out of American technology and American parts.
You are using all sorts of conspiracies theories to link a failed project in ISRAEL to a plane in CHINA.
Two different countries. Two different cultures. Two different languages. And two different aviation infrastructures.
Sorry, the J-10 flies in China and only in China. And you are so desperate to call it Israeli that you are forgetting the known facts.
1. Israel denies the Lavi was ever passed to China,
2. The Lavi never made production in Israel and the US never made use of it either,
3. Israel has NEVER developed a fully Israeli plane,
4. China cannot produce an American plane like the Lavi. Otherwise we would see the F-16 in China.
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