Btw, I do live in a Western country and am in no way affected by the “jingoism” of China itself.

Strevitel/Flogger, your idiotic attack on me was simply on my race and has nothing to do with replying to the facts that I pointed out.

To you, a person who is Chinese cannot even say a plane that is produced and flies only in China is Chinese.

But you can claim the world for the Lavi because it was made by Israel :rolleyes:

Nothing in China is Chinese but everything in Israel is Israeli (in spite of the fact that US can cancel the Lavi by withholding American parts) as well as the best things in China? :rolleyes:

Please listen carefully.

Point 1.
Yes, Israel denies it till today or it has to give away, that it did support China after 1989 against the will of the USA to persue own Israeli intrests by that. Neither China nor Israel had an idea at first, how long the imposed US weapons-embargo would last really and how serious it would be imposed by the USA. Both sides did learn it the hard way, when they thought about a short-lived coolness at first.

Now you listen carefully instead of going into convoluted “explanations” when the facts and common sense dictate against the Lavi going to China.

Point 1. Whether or not Israel thought the embargo would or would not last is absolutely irrelevant.

Israel would not be able to continue denying and lying if there were any evidence that the Lavi was passed to China.

There is no evidence because no Lavi ever entered China. Otherwise, somebody, somewhere would have brought this up.

The evidence would be clear cut, Israel would admit it is lying. Admit that is had backstabbed the US for a few billion dollars. And we would not be having this discussion.

Point 2.
The Lavi was no failure in the technical sense, but Israel was forced by US-pressure to stop it and buy F-16s. By your logic the YF-23 was a failure too, because it did not went into production.

Retarded excuse. The YF-23 was developed by the same country, the US, that also produced the F-22. It was one of two projects and it lost in a competion. The YF-23 was not dropped because it depended on another country.

The Lavi was not competing against another Israeli jet. Israel could not design a full-fledge fighter on its own.

If the Lavi were actually Israeli, then they would have made a production run.

If the Lavi were actually good then the Americans would have taken the design and made a production run.

Neither happened. The Lavi failed and it now sits as a dead end prototype.

Point 3.
The Lavi incorporated several key-elements liscensed by the USA. Without US-consent, the Lavi could not have been exported from Israel.

And without American consent, the Lavi could not be made in China.

You are bending over backwards to suggest some link to J-10 just because the J-10 is also a delta-canard.

A “concept” in Hebrew cannot magically make Chinese plants put out American parts that the Lavi needed.

The Lavi could not be made in Israel without American consent and it certainly could not be made into a viable product in China which is embargoed from US technology.

Point 4.
See 1 and 3 about that.
Point 5.
Do you exspect, that GD did drop the export prospects of its F-16 to invest new money for a better variant named ‘Lavi’, which was tailored for the Israeli needs at first?!

Absolutely garbage excuse in trying to pretend that the Lavi is anything but a failure. If the Lavi ideas were any good, the US would have used the design and made a production run. Did the US kill the Harrier or the Hawk? Did it stop engine delivery to the Gripen? Bullsh1t excuses.

Do you have noticed, that the Europeans including Russia and China (with its J-10) built close-coupled canards with the demanded FBW and that all had started in the late 70s till 80s with that?!

Exactly. Just because a plane is a delta-canard, it does not mean that it is connected to the Lavi. The delta-canard is aviation concept that was persued by many nations.

The garbage I hear from you and Strevitel/Flogger is that because the J-10 is a delta-canard, it must be related to the Lavi.

It was in the US intrest even to strengthen China militarily.

We already wrote about this. I said there is far more possibility that related work on the J-10 came from the UK or the US who were involved in the JH-7, K-8, Super 7 and Peace Pearl projects than the Israelies which has never designed a full fighter aircraft on its own.

Sens, what the hell are you talking about? The X-31 has nothing to do with the Lavi which was what Strevitel/Flogger was trying to suggest.

If the Lavi was a design good enough to “compete” with US aircraft, an American company would have incorporated the design into an American product just as the US Navy took in the Hawk and the Kfir.

You have no reply except for conspiracy theories and personal attacks to answer for:

1. Israel denies any passing of the Lavi to China,

2. the Lavi itself was a failure in Israel and was never put into production,

3. the Lavi was dependent on American technology and American parts — which China had no access to,

4. if Israel would risk American anger by transferring the Lavi to China and then lie about it then why wouldn’t it just build the Lavi and put it into its own air force,

5. if the Lavi was good enough to compete with the US planes then the US would have taken the Lavi design and we would see a delta-canard in the American air force. But we don’t.

You have nothing except conspiracies, racist innuendo (“eastern way of thinking”) and personal attacks to counter those very basic facts.

T
You political base is also flawed, first Israel is an independent nation, can do what ever is deemed convinient for the Israeli people

Outright stupidity.

1. If Israel were an independent nation then why didn’t it just build the Lavi and put it in its air force?

2. If the Lavi were a successful why didn’t Israel just build the Lavi and put it in its air force?

3. If Israel would risk US anger by selling the Lavi to China then why didn’t Israel just build the Lavi and put it in its own air force?

The obvious answers to all those questions are:

1. No, Israel is not an independent country which is why it did not build the Lavi.

2. The Lavi was not a success which is why Israel did not induct the Lavi into the air force.

3. The Israelies were not crazy enough to p1ss off the Americans by passing along what amounts to an American aircraft and the Chinese were not dumb enough to buy an design that was never productized from an inferior aircraft industry like Israel’s.

Those answers do not require conspiracy theories and stereotypes. Those are based on the fact that the Lavi was cancelled and was never inducted into the Israeli air force. That constitutes failure in any language, except in the language of conspiracy theorists and other nutcases.

Great thread! Sad to see those burnt out wrecks of K-8s after the Tamil Tiger attack.

The Katunyake attack was a pretty devastating one. K-8s, Kfirs. MiG-27 and a few Airbuses were caught up in that one.

the Lavi was by 1980s standards one of the best aircraft so good that the US pressed to terminate it.

That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard. The US terminated the Lavi because it was “so good” :rolleyes:

If the Lavi were a viable aircraft and if it were actually “Israeli” then Israel would have made it with or without US support.

The fact is this is a failed project and a completely non-viable product that depended on American technology and parts. It was too expensive, too dependent on American parts and too easily dropped to be anything but a failure.

The fact remains that there were only five Lavi prototypes. None of which ever left Israel.

What’s more is Israel has NEVER develped a proper warplane design of its own. The closest is the Kfir which is to the Mirage V as the J-7 is to the MiG-21. Even South Africa had its own Mirage knockoff.

All this talk about the J-10, a project that will produce 100s of planes from the Chinese aviation infrastructure (which is extremely different from the American-supplied Israeli one) and the Lavi, a failed project that depended on American parts denied to China, is just silly.

You have to jump through hoops (and use some ugly stereotypes) to explain:

1) the Israeli government’s denial of any transfer of the Lavi (“Israel is lying! It is willing to backstab the US, its protector, for a few filthy dollars. But that is the way those people are, anything for money.” :rolleyes: ),

2) how a Lavi design dependent on parts and technology from the US could possibly work with the Chinese aviation industry which is embargoed from US tech (“Parts could simply materialize out of paper designs! Don’t worry about the Chinese plants actually making the fuselage and wings and the ten thousand and one parts designed to US specifications! Those Chinese plants would miraculously spit out the Lavi’s American parts once you have the ‘design!’ “),

3) and why a “design” that is “Israeli” can’t reach production in Israel itself. (“No, no, it is a great design. The Americans stopped it because of competition. Of course, Israel needed American technology, American funding and American naivete to keep the project going. Israel also never designed a fully Israeli aircraft because of the refusal of the Americans to give it everything it needed.” )

:rolleyes:

Simply silly.

Sens, its definitely not an eastern way of thinking- at least not all of the east. In India, we have a saying – its the official Govt quotation come to think of it, the irony!

India is not an eastern nation. Not in the way that Sens is talking about or the way an average Westerner thinks of the East. When people talk of East and West, it was the difference in thinking between N. America/Europe and the USSR/Iron Curtain. Before and after the Cold War, East/West meant the difference between Westerners and Orientals/East Asians.