Ah, but I’m not contending that any actual hardware was ever transferred!

No hardware and all you have is zilch.

That doesn’t mean that they might not be able to offer some expertise.

Expertise in avionics, American AAM codes and weaknesses, American engines. Yes. But in aircraft design, assembly and manufacture? No.

The J-10 is a delta-canard because its predecessor, the J-9 was a delta-canard. The Lavi just happens to be one as well, just like the Rafale and the EF.

Not true. Israel would have gained a degree of knowledge related to the manufacture of 4th generation aircraft.

Really? Tell me what 4th gen aircraft the IAI produces? In fact, name one aircraft from Israel that competes with the J-7 today or the JF-17 in the future? Hell, where is the Israeli competition for the K-8 or even the Y-12?

Failed and overly expensive are two different things.

It’s the same thing. If it is too expensive to build then it’s a failure. In Israel’s case, why would it be too expensive? The US is paying for it. Hell, if it is too expensive for Israel, it would be doubly so for China.

At any rate, how hard is it to believe that the USA would bend over backwards to keep it’s pet project in the Middle East from public criticism?

If you are going to bend over backwards to hide the Lavi’s transfer to China then why not bend backwards and let the Israelies have it as well?

It makes absolutely no sense.

These are the facts:

1. The Israeli government has denied any transfer of the Lavi,

2. ALL five Lavi prototypes are in Israel, not China,

3. There were no US Congressional punishment for the sale of the Lavi to China.

4. There is absolutely no way that the US government would stop Israel from building the Lavi but not punish Israel for selling the same aircraft to its biggest rival,

5. Israel actually has a much smaller and far less experienced aircraft design and manufacturing industry than China

So whatever was passed from the Lavi program that is worth something to China would have be American. This goes back to number 3, if American technology was passed, we would know for sure from an official American document.

There is no US document stating that the Lavi had unequivocably gone to China. If there were, we would not even be having this discussion. There were be heavy penalties and we would without any doubt that the Lavi is the J-10.

There are no US penalties imposed for the Lavi transfer to China so unless you are engaged in a conspiracy theory that the entire US Senate and House of Representatives are in the backpocket of Israel (or the “Jews”) and won’t bring up this alleged transfer then there is no reason to believe that a failed design from an inferior aircraft industry which cannot even fly in the Israeli air force and which was blocked explicitly by the US somehow ends up flying in China.

You have to twist over backwards to make the Lavi transfer to China work.

If you want to accept this version that goes very well with Western claims of Israel passing that technology, well is up to you.

It goes very well only with the internet claims. It goes against all reason when we look at real world and official American and Israeli actions.

1. The Israeli government has denied any transfer of the Lavi,

2. ALL five Lavi prototypes are in Israel, not China,

3. There were no US Congressional punishment for the sale of the Lavi to China. There is absolutely no way that the US government would stop Israel from building the Lavi but not punish Israel for selling the same aircraft to its biggest rival,

4. Israel has a much smaller and far less experienced aircraft design and manufacturing industry than China; whatever is passed from the Lavi program that is worth something to China would be American; this goes back to number 3, if American technology was passed, we would know for sure from an official American document. There is no US document stating that the Lavi had unequivocably gone to China,

Strevitel, you are engaging in a conspiracy theory. You pretending you have more knowledge and resources than the US Congress, the US Senate and the American intelligence arms who would have made clear if the Lavi had actually gone to China.

You are pretending that you know that the Israeli government lied about the Lavi and had backstabbed the US and you are also hinting that Israel controls the US government so that the Americans would not even punish Israel for what would be an extremely damaging trangression.

Look at Phalcon and Harpy and even the Lavi project, US reaction and punishment was swift and clear. There was no punishment for this alleged Lavi transfer which would have been a far, far, far more serious transgression than either Phalcon or Harpy. Lavi was blocked by the US for Israel itself, it could not then be sold to China without extreme consequences for Israel.

Strevitel, you engage in conspiracy theories not facts.

Let’s get this straight. Israel has NEVER designed its own aircraft. It took plans from Dassault for the Kfir and the Atar and in that it parallels China’s development of the J-7 but on a much, much smaller scale.

Now could Israel have passed on inofrmation to China? Very likely. In American technology like the Patriot. In avionics and targeting sensors. And in AAMs.

But NOT in aircraft design or manufacture. China is light years ahead of Israel in that realm. You won’t find a K-8, J-7PG or even a turboprop transport like the Y-12 from Israel. These are planes that China has sold by the hundreds. The closest challenge to China’s stable of exportable aircraft is the Israeli Kfir which is a clone of the Mirage III.

So why in hell would the Chinese take the Lavi design from an aircraft industry that is distinctly smaller and distinctly inferior in many ways? It would be one thing if China had one of the prototypes and the Chinese could get their hands on the American parts and engines but NO Lavi is missing. Every one is accounted for and IN Israel.

But most imortantly why would Israel chance its survival by selling the Lavi?

If the Lavi went to China, we would KNOW it from Cngressional investigations. There is NOTHING that goes to China without a reaction from the US.

These are the facts. Unless you’re a conspiracy nut who believes that the Elders of Zion control the US government to the extent that grandstanding US senators would deliberately ignore the Lavi’s transfer to China, you cannot dismiss the obvious.

hehehehehe man this is really funny sounds like a poem hehehehehehe an eulogy hehehehe Tigershark hehehehehe Historical trends show that the world is going to be rule by one international government.

What historic trend? How can you have a historic trend for something that never happened before? You should stop the “hehehehehehe”, it reads like an insane cackle.

Golden tigershark

If you read the Russian source i gave you they point out that China will have a Mix of heavy weight Su-27s, medium sized J-10s and low weight JF-17s.

Pretty obvious, no? Even laymen in this forum have said so because it is easy to see that the three aircraft vary in size and roles. What’s being forgotten are the J-7G, JH-7A and the possible L-15 variants.

So China is not sacrificing quality by quantity, they say the main fighter will be a fleet of 1500 J-10s do you agree?

That’s what the Russians said to Fisher. Who knows?

Personally I think it will change. The west is so complacent right now it’s almost nausiating. China is ambitious and ambition is what will change things. They’re looking 20, 50, a 100 years down the road. The West? The furthest they can see is “what’s at the bottom of the balance sheet next quarter” or “what can I tell people so I’ll get elected”. All you need to do is look at the three-ring circus called “procurement” to see how far ahead we’re looking.

All the work we did to get where we are and now? It’s like we think it’s our due. Like it’ll just be there all the time. It’s like the story about the grasshopper and the ant and we’re the grasshopper and winter is coming. Hopefully I am wrong.

The winter came for China. Many times. But Summer followed just as many times. Chinese history and culture is eternal because precedence had already been set in the past. One thing with having a continuous history is you can predict the seasons.

China isn’t an ambitious new nation like a Germany under Bismarck. It’s an ancient civilization that pretty much expects that Summer will eventually come again.

you brought the bell curve but i said to you a reality you won`t addmit

I brought out the Bell Curve because you’re the racist who repeatedly attempted to say that the massive infrastructure and the 250,000 members of the Chinese aviation industry are nothing and that their work is nothing because of a foreign “design” even though every part of a J-7, J-8 or JH-7 is built in China.

Now why are your stereotypes okay but the scientific work of Hernstein and Murray are not? Because the Bell Curve does not conform to your stereotype of the Chinese?

First do not put words i never said.

Strevitel, you were banned from CDF for being the racist that you are. The Bell Curve is a direct citation of the idiotic literature that you subscribe to, Strevitel. You denounce it only when it contradicts your stereotypes about the Chinese.

I have never subcribed to the idiocy that China did not incorporate western thoughts in its aircraft industry. In fact, anyone reading my posts knows I place western, especially American, aircraft and industry at the forefront. Every aircraft industry on earth relied on previous principles and experiments developed first at Kitty Hawk and later at various places in the Western world.

But there is extreme stupidity (and not a little racism) in saying that when it comes to China an “design” is more important than the thousands of workers and the massive infrastructure that compose an giant aerospace industry like the PRC’s. The J-7 and JH-7 cannot be built in Peru or Zimbabwe or even Sweden without foreign parts — wherever the original design came from.

In times of war, the J-7 will have a Chinese-made airframe and the JH-7 will have a Chinese-made engine that will not be subjected to embargo. And more than any of the aircraft producing states, China has been subjected to Western (and Soviet) embargoes.

No Chinese member here, me most of all, would ignore the Western dominance of aviation. I’ve said it all along that ONLY the P5 are capable of building military aircraft on the scale we see in China. The P5 (except for the PRC) are white western nations.