GoldenDragonFor you other two clones…
Nice racial insult. Chinese people = “clones.” Something less than human who could be nuked with little consequence. :rolleyes:
Calling Chinese people names is not “racial” to you folks. But pointing out that 1950s America with its Jim Crow laws and repeated threats to nuke non-nuclear-armed Asians is.
Yes, there was widespread racism in the US in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, and right through today.
This racism affected most of the decisions of America, but more as a side-effect than directly!
Absolutely, which is all I was saying.
The US threatened to nuke China three times in the 1950s. Each time when the Chinese had NO nukes and when the US homeland was NEVER under threat. The US leadership thought seriously of nuking millions of Chinese on THREE occasions.
Read the writings from the period. Racism made it far easier to comtemplate nuking Asians even when the US was not threatened and it was all out of proportion to the whatever threat a peasant army posed.
GoldenDragonDon’t forget the Alenia G222, exported to the US as the C-27 Spartan.
GoldenDragonlooks like Chinese aircraft might be a formidable challenger for the trainer/light-fighter/strike market against Italy.
The only overlapping competition is the basic jet trainer where the K-8 is placed against the M 339.
As far as the light fighter and strike ac, I’d like to see more of the AMX in Brazil and the rest of South America. It’s a neat little aircraft. But currently it hasn’t posed much of a threat on the world’s market.
Now, the Augusta Mangusta attack helo is an interesting product that has no equivalent on the Chinese sales list.
The Alenia G-222 light transport is a solid product where the Chinese equivalent, the Y-7H, has not done nearly as well.
Welcome to the discussion.
GoldenDragonNice pics, Lika!
GoldenDragonIt’s not political correctness – it’s called you don’t like being asked to show any facts to back up your charges. Try using factual references to argue the issue at hand – namely America would use atomic weapons more freely against an Asian nation then any others of non-Asian background.
If you want facts then it was proven by the fact that the only bombs dropped in in history were dropped by Americans on an Asian nation. But again, I don’t disapprove of it. Those bombs were dropped correctly.
What does the African American experience have to do with your assertion that the command and control structure of the US Government is racist?
Because it has everything to do with a nation that legally sees others as inferior to whites. Don’t give me the bull manure that a country that LEGALLY placed African-Americans into a lower social status would somehow have an enlightened attitude about race among its elites.
You may want to wrap yourself in the flag of past racial horrors as some form of a defence, but the fact remains that you have no evidence to back up your loony assertions of a racial bias when it comes to nuclear war.
:rolleyes: Saying that McArthy’s America of the 1950s with legalized racial discrimination was not influenced by race when it threatened to nuke China three separate times is “looney?”
It appears you don’t get it. We are discussing *your* charge that America could care less about killing millions of people because they are non-white. I asked you to prove this to be true.
:rolleyes:
1. 1700-1865, slave trade: victims, in the millions,
2. 1775-1900, native American genocide, victims, in the millions,
3. 1840-1945, American participation in the colonialization and dismemberment of China, dead from subsequent chaos and civil war, in the millions
Enough deaths as proof for you?
1859, at the Taku Forts in China where the British were attacking the Chinese, an American naval commander, Commodore Josiah Tatnall, was watching the battle from his flag ship. He ordered an attack on the Chinese even though the US was neutral and he issued an order codenamed appropriately “Blood Is Thicker Than Water”.
Tatnall attacked the Chinese who were the victims in support of the aggressor British because they were both European.
The US felt the same way after WWII. It supported France over the Vietnamese and Britain over Kenyans.
Why are you dodging the issue? Japan STILL has racial issues on how it deals with people born in Japan who are of non-Japanese background. This is as relevant to the disscussion at hand as Jim Crow is.
Japan is a racist society without doubt. Far more racist towards other Asians than whites by the way. But Japan’s racism has nothing to do with American willingness to use during that time period simply because Japanese racism is Japanese, kid.
Jim Crow most absolutely does because it is American. Mores of society is reflected in its leadership, ESPECIALLY in a democracy that elects its leaders.
GoldenDragonNo – your linking of dropping or the near dropping of atomic bombs (Korea) as somewhat being easier (my take on what you are saying) because these countries are Asian is not based in fact.
:rolleyes: You want to pretend political correctness in that era, go ahead. Of course it made it easier. Read Studs Terkel or any number of American author on the how the war in the Pacific (or Vietnam or Korea) had a qualitative difference to those fought against European nations.
No one is denying that there was racism (and still is) in 1950’s America. The argument that you *seem* to be putting forward that the US would use some form of racist policy upon part of the national command authority when it comes to nuclear weapons use is showing a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter.
I never said that the US had some form of official racial policy like Jim Crow or Apartheid during the Cold War towards China. I said the attitude of 1950s America where Jim Crow was a perfectly legal platform made it an easy to nuke a non-white threat like China.
Sir: stick to the subject matter and enough with the interjection of your own emotional grandstanding here. Everyone here passed grade school history.
The only emotional person here is you. You’re the one calling another poster in this forum “racist” just because he pointed out the prevailing attitude of the times. There isn’t even any way to seriously argue about the attitude then. There were actual laws in the US that declared one race was inferior to the other and needed to be separated. So there is no arguement about the racial attitude during that period.
Your immensely stupid idea that American society might be racist but not its military and political power structure is some politically correct bull manure. The military in the US (as in almost every nation) is generally more conservative than society as a whole.
I see you don’t like people calling you out on your harebrained racial theories in the tactical use of nuclear weapons?
A harebrained idea in the tactical use of nuclear weapons? Who said anything about “tactical” use of nuclear weapons. You’re trying bs your way through this by making up things I’ve said.
You’re first instinct is to call someone a racist which the PC way of stopping all discussion.
It’s all about your “opinion” of what people were *thinking* back then? Easy to nuke people?!
That was exactly my opinion and of many other about the train of thought of men in power back then.
Why the hell do you think there was a need for the civil rights movement in the US? You’re trying to convince me that the US military was less conservative than American society as a whole?
As for the type of thinking back then. It was in the same era as the Holocaust.
It absolutely made it easier for China, an abysmally poor nation compared to the US and who didn’t even have nuclear weapons, to be repeatedly threatened with nukes by American leaders.
So yes, I do believe that American leaders find it easier to nuke Chinese than people from Europe.
China apologist Dave Schraeger has gone even further.
Never heard of him but from what I’ve seen, there is a group that considers anyone who believes Chinese people are human is a China aopologist.
You seem to love sweeping generalizations but are very thin on factual content.
:rolleyes: The only one who made sweeping generalizations is you. I said the nuclear bombing on Japan were correct. I said there is no official policy of racial hatred like the Nazi in the US government back in the 1950s.
But I do say that the prevailing attitude of the time was to treat no-whites as something less than human.
Read about the US wars in the Pacific, Korea and SE Asia, kid. In fact, pick up John W. Dower’s War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War.
GoldenDragonRacism is alive and well I see. The fact that an Asian country started the war in the Pacific must be lost on you.
:rolleyes:
Pointing out the racist attitude during that period is not racism. Denying that racism was part of the American fabric in that point and time is.
Before you go further, try telling me there were no separate drinking fountains for blacks and whites in the US during 1950s and that Jim Crow’s laws were just a figment of my imagination.
Grow up and not try to inject idiot political correctness into the conversation.
No one said the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were wrong. They were needed to end the war. But the fact an Asian nation was already nuked made it all the more easy for the US to repeatedly threaten to nuke China when it didn’t even have the bomb.
It sounds as if this statement is based on YOUR perceptions of America during the 50’s instead of the numerous academic research papers and books written on the subject of the decision to bomb Japan and the post war nuclear cold war period.
My perception of America is that of an American. I KNOW the history of the country. As I said before, I agree with the decision to nuke Japan. Anything that saved American lives is paramount in my book.
But don’t bull manure me on Ozzie and Harriet in the 1950s. That was an ugly period for people who weren’t white.
It wasn’t until the civil rights movement of the 1960s that the majority of people of color could even vote in the southern part of the country. The McCarthy era was a fun time for people who were different, too :rolleyes:
GoldenDragonSeems to be the best close-up picture so far ! Thanks for posting !
But … what’s that ???? (posted by Tigershark in the CDF “China’s AWACS Program thread”)
Does the Y-8 AWE has these strange endplates ???? :confused:
Cheers, Deino 😀
Hey Deino, if they are on the ends of the horizontal stablizers, they might be no more than aerodynamic changes needed to compensate for whatever they put on top of the Y-8 (balance beam, pancake, whatever.) Basically, they act as two extra vertical stabilizers.
That kind of plate design doesn’t look to be electronic/avionic connected so I would guess that it’s structural.
GoldenDragonThe above info was taken (from memory) from a book I used to have about the USAF in the UK. Can’t remember the tiltle offhand…
Remember, if the US had nuked both the SU and China, they’d be the dominant military power by a MASSIVE margin. This policy was mooted in the days before the SU had large atomic / nuclear stocks and before they’d the ability to deliver them to the US. And of course China was still years away from the “bomb”.
China had lived under the American bomb for decades. It was threatened outright by the US no less than three times. Once during the Korean War when MacArthur wanted to nuke Manchuria and twice during the 1950s over Kinmoy and Matsu by Eisenhower.
Of course, the USSR also threatened to nuke China several times and actually contacted Nixon if the US would stand aside if Russia did attack China. Nixon took that message and parlayed it into the single most successful strategic move during the Cold War.
BTW, it is often forgotten just how non-chalant the US was in the 1950s in considering the use of nukes on countries considered threats.
The US had already nuked an Asian nation. Nuking a non-white nation like China (and Russia too since in the 1950s, Americans like Germans considered Russians somewhat Asian and less than full European) was considered pretty acceptable in 1950s America.
GoldenDragonLooks like a Z-9G in pre-paint. Chinese Army not Air Force.
GoldenDragonThis is a rehash of a “policy” putnforward by certain US hawks in the 50’s. The idea was to nuke the USSR and then China taking advantage of the American nuclear dominance in atomic / nuclear weaponry.
Of course, this was until wiser heads pointed out that destoying Soviet and Chinese cities would cost the US billions to put right in decades to come just as with the Marshall Plan.
There was never any plan to rebuild anyone after a nuclear exchange.
Money to rebuild economies is done after a regime change friendly to the US (obviously, straight out occupation by US troops like what happened in Germany and Japan by definition means a friendly regime change.)
China and Russia which are termed “peer competitors” to the US would never be given a Marshall Plan whatever the regime. I doubt it would make a difference to the US if China was communist or democratic. It’s a competitor as an entity not simply because of government or ideology.
A revival plan is only given countries that the US sees as intrinsically inferior to the United States over the long run. In fact, the US is willing to take such a nation and publicly declare it will make it a “world power” because it feels comfortable that such a nation can never approach American power.
GoldenDragonRomanian H-5
GoldenDragonGuys please put some more pics and not just only text.
Good suggestion! 😀
GoldenDragonJH-7 was based on Western engines and Western concepts. There is nothing Russian about it. Sukhoi is never mention in tandem with the JH-7.
In fact, after the 1980s, only the J-11/Su-27 had major input from Russia.
As for the L-15 and Y-8X, Russian firms were called in as consultants after the project started. Hongdu and Shaanxi, the makers of the L-15 and Y-8X respectively, work just as much with Western firms as they do Russian. Hongdu is the maker of the K-8 which is a western-based design. And Shaanxi had been putting Western avionics, propellers and engines into its latest Y-8 series (Y8F200, -400, -600.)
China only re-engaged with Sukhoi and Russia after the Western embargo.
And if Europe drops its embargo, the Chinese fixed wing lineup would look just like China’s helicopter list (the world’s largest number of simultaneous programs) and that is having every program based on a western model.
GoldenDragonagreed, block was a stupid word to use for this.
What is more stupid is attempting to say that people can get a 01 version and a 04 version when both are from the SAME initial development series of prototypes.
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