On top of the KT-1 which sold to Indonesia, the Koreans has hit the mil market in a big way. 60 planes before the first induction of the first machines in the domestic air force is amazing. That’s is a lot of confidence placed on the design. No doubt the American involvement had helped in gaining trust.

Korea’s is probably the most exciting new aerospace industry to watch in the coming years. Judging from the way S Korea had hit the cars and ship markets, they’ll be a force in the aerospace sector before long. This spot should have been Taiwan’s but the RoC’s industry fell off a cliff after the F-1CK.

First squadron of PAF JF-17 by middle of next year. Six aircraft (it was reported early on that 12 of the initial limited series production machines would be going to Pakistan.)

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2005-daily/09-03-2005/main/main17.htm

PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year

By Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: The first squadron of ultramodern fighter planes, JF-17 Thunder, would be inducted in the Pakistan Air Force fleet in the middle of next year.

This squadron will consist of six supersonic warplanes being jointly built by Pakistan and China. Engineers and technicians from both the countries have started building five prototype fighter planes. The prototype project is likely to be completed within a couple of months.

A highly placed source has confirmed that the PAF would induct 150 JF-17 fighters in phases. These planes would be equipped with latest avionics, most of which are being jointly developed by the two countries. These would be inducted in the PAF to replace Chinese origin warplanes, A-5 and F-7, which are completing their stated life. It is learnt that the China Air Force would induct more than 500 JF-17 fighter planes during coming years.

The project was conceived during the then prime minister Nawaz Sharif’s first regime in the early 90s. The first test flight of the supersonic jet was successfully conducted in September 2003 in China. It is learnt that the production cost of this medium technology fighter would be significantly less than the international market price of such state-of-the-art planes.

Closing out this idiocy

Indeed, nothing changed. You still insist over your claims, which is alright, but without refering and asnwering my claims. You don’t even quote me, not to mention saying something new.

I didn’t quote you because you told me earlier on you didn’t want to reply and you said it twice. I tend to ignore people who said they want no part of the debate. Don’t tell me you don’t want to reply and then come back on again.

Besides which, you gave me nothing but excuses and inplausible stories. But if you want me to quote you and go through the excuses one by one, I will. After this, we’ll conclude this charade.

But keep in mind a single thing – Israel isn’t a part of the United States. Never was, never will be. We share same interests but not all of our interests are identical. We might have sold the Lavi tech to China. So what? the US can’t do anything about it as long as it’s not their tech.

This is obvious daydreaming and bullsh!t, especially in the Lavi’s case. Israel has denied selling it to China. That could mean only two things: one, Israel never sold Lavi to China or two, Israel has to hide and lie and to the US because the tech is American. If Israel owned the tech and sold it to China in the open, then we wouldn’t be having this idiotic debate.

Indeed the Nesher and the Fouga were French. But you said, and I’m quoting:
“Israel doesn’t have an advance airframe design and manufacturing industry”
So manufacturing – the hell yeah. And these examples are perfect for that.
The Kfir, which is 60% a Mirage V and 40% an Israeli developed redesign, gave us the real first push with aircraft designs. The next project, the Arye, made use of fully home grown designs.

Bullsh!t. These three planes were respectively French, French and French. The Arye was a paper project and China had dozens of those, not just the J-9 but the original J-10, Q-6, Y-9 and too many others to name. Some of China’s like the J-12 flew though. To think China needed a design from an untested and novice Israeli industry that is based on American components that China can’t get is pure hubris and bullsh!t.

First of all, remember that the American pressure was eventually the fact that they took their 40% of development costs. On the other hand, we could have sold what we already got and they couldn’t do anything about it.

I’ve never read anything so oxymoronic. Israel could sell anything it wants and the “US can’t do anything about it” and yet it has to “do it under the table.”

Erez. OXYMORON. It could be a joke: “We can sell what’s ours as long as we keep it quiet so the real owner doesn’t know.”

That’s the reason both Israel and China denied it. For Israel, the risk of losing the aid is just too great to take against a single arms deal.

You’re going around in circles with one illogical excuse after another. The “risk of losing the aid is just too great” and yet you are claiming that Israel took that very risk in selling an US-funded project to China.

Israel denies it because it never took that risk in the first place. Grow up, kid, governments like Israel’s aren’t stupid or suicidally prone to taking foolish risk. And governments like China’s aren’t prone to spending money on failed projects. All three Lavi prototypes are accounted for in Israel – and no one is going to pay money for a few bullsh!t drawings.

Let’s face it, China doesn’t want Israeli “designs” they want the American and Western content in Israeli arms. China designed a lot of aircraft like the original J-10 swingwing, the Q-6 attacker and the J-9. They were highly advanced designs that China would have been able to make if they had access to American components and tech like Israel did.

So if China bought the Lavi, it would be to get access to the American technology in the Lavi because “designs” China had too many of. The ONLY way Israel could have sold the Lavi to China was to take the risk of passing on American technology.

Even you know that risk wasn’t worth it. So stop imagining some great convoluted, contorted fairy tale to explain away the facts which are 1) the Lavi was a failure and was cancelled; and 2) Israel says officially that it never sold the Lavi.

Supposedly a gun designed specifically for helos.

Forget it. Go read Francillon first and learn to actually study a subject before droning on.

Not only were planes extremely different but the basic a/c design philosophies of wartime Japan and Germany were entirely different. That is a basic truth to even a cursory student of WWII aircraft.

Strevitel, you haven’t changed since they banned you from CDF. I had thought you would show enough interest in a subject you began to actually study it. But you haven’t changed it seems.

Good luck with your thread.

Despite your claim, Israel and the USA do not share the same intrests always.
Most times even not so.

Sens, you’re making up claims again. I never claimed that that US and Israel shared interests. Israel’s interest is its survival in the Middle East. The US’ interests are global with the Middle East being only one of many.

We could assume that Israel has different interests (including those detrimental to the US.) But giving the Lavi to China is one of the most damaging things Israel could do to its OWN self-interest and that is betraying the United States upon which Israel’s own survival depends.

Again, Israel denies any connection between the Lavi and China. If the Lavi was based on Israeli tech (and not American) then the US has no say and Israel would have built it.

If we discount the obvious fact that the Lavi was a failed project and accept that the Lavi was shut down because of American pressure, then why in hell would the Israeli government then turn around and give the Lavi to China which would incur far harsher American pressure. The logic of the Lavi ever going to China is entirely foolish.

Now listen here, Sens. Look at the following points, I’m going to go through them step-by-step. Writing about the J-10 in Paris or Chinese students in Moscow has nothing to do with the following facts. Every piece of which are evidence against China ever getting the Lavi.

1. Israel has never designed anything that wasn’t based on French or American technology. So this idiocy that Israel passed China a 4.5 gen craft is improbable. Israel is no great aircraft design/manufacturing center,

2. the Lavi was a failure. It never went beyond prototype stage before it was cancelled. If it were a success, Israel would have mass produced it. That never happened. Whether it flew with all its American components is inconsequential because Israel couldn’t build it without American technology or without American money. And if sold to China, China wouldn’t have been able to make it without American tecnology any more than Israel (and maybe China would have needed American kind of money also, who knows how expensive the Lavi really was,)

3. if you argue that the Lavi was a success and that it was shut down only because of American pressure then why in hell would Israel then turn around and give that same project to China? American pressure would increase immeasurably. You might as well ignore American pressure in the first place and build the Lavi in Israel.

This Lavi/J-10 argument is shear stupidity based strictly on the premise that Israel is lying and that Israel would risk its very survival for a pittance in money considering American largesse is worth many times whatever imagined J-10 payout.

Look at the pictures, it actually works there is nothing wrong with it

BTW, the second picture you posted is not a Me109 but a Ki-61 and you could easily tell by the belly air scoop, the sharp nose (Me109’s is rounded and carried a cannon), rounded canopy (instead of the Me109’s famous box-shaped one) and the rounded wing tips. It obvious, Strevitel, you really don’t know what you’re talking about concerning Japanese aircraft and industry.

You can claim this as long as you will. It will change nothing about reality.
We have to wait and see only. A J-10 in Paris will demonstrate the “flying capabilities of that fighter to the world public some day. Why not in 2005?!
The SU was not that shy before to demonstrate the capabilities of its new fighters for all world to see. 😀

What? What was my claim? Did I claim a J-10 will be flying in Paris in 2005? Who claimed that? Sens, you can’t make up a phoney claim and then editorialize about it. It’s a stupid and disingenuous way to debate.

Stick to the Lavi/J-10 argument instead of some idiotic editorial on the state of the J-10.

The debate was on the Lavi-to-China claims and I pointed out the three contradictory arguments that proponents such as Erez tried to use.

1. If the Lavi technology was mainly Israeli then the US wouldn’t be able to stop its development. The US did stop it and did so easily because the Lavi depended on US tech. Passing the Lavi to China would mean that Israel is giving China American technology. An open betrayal of Israel’s own protector.

2. If the Lavi was a success then Israel would have mass produced it. Israel did not because it could not produce an US plane without the US. It was no success but a failure.

3. If the Israel government closed down the Lavi because of adverse political pressure from the US then it be suicidal for them to then give that project to China which would bring even worse American pressure. This is jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

All three of the above neither you nor Erez could answer. Because you are saying in effect: A) Israel is lying (since it has already denied any link between the J-10 and Lavi) and B) Israel is stupid and greedy enough to risk American wrath and its very survival for a one-shot payment from China.

You are trying to say Israel would risk great political capital with the US for monetary gain. Actually a pittance in money with a supposedly “$1 billion” deal for Israel to risk the billions yearly in US aid and American goodwill in supporting Israel’s continued existence.

Instead of opinionating on a “J-10 in Paris” and making up my so-called “claims” just stick to the subject. That subject is about people like you and Erez trying to give phoney importance to a failed project in Israel that was dependent on American technology.