GoldenDragonIt is possible that the UBKs on the 1st, 6th and 7th (using the #27 to #30/32 number) may only be temporary assignments, and moved back to their original groups once they are replaced by late recieved J-11s; the UBKs only being for training pilots.
This picture has the J-11 in a darker blue, with the radome in contrast. Note that the characteristic cut out in the radome wasn’t painted.
Interesting indeed. Not surprising that planes would be transferred from time to time.
Here is another interesting photo that could be important for J-11/SK watchers. Unless the tip is a plastic seeker-head protector cap then that missile being loaded is a MRAAM. The rear fins tells me it’s not a R-77 and it is also missing the distinctive R-27 squarish fins.
This means a Chinese MRAAM (either the PL-11 or PL-12) on a Flanker. We know that neither the SK nor the MKK could carry one so this could be our first look at a J-11B.
GoldenDragonHere’s another photo from Hyperwarp’s set on the new J-7G and the CCTV show. This looks to be the PL-8 or even PL-9 on a J-7G in primer
GoldenDragonInteresting I though indians wasted much more . There spending level is very low compared to China . Flogger’s numbers are welcome . In fact I think numbers are allways necessary for a good debate . 🙂
As far as aviation is concerned, Brazil through Embraer is actually ahead of almost everyone in Asia. In my view, until the ARJ-21 gets done and is selling well to Chinese airlines, no one in Asia can claim any lead over Brazil.
The Brazil air force being relatively less powerful in comparision to the larger Asian states is because of choice not because of ability. Watch the CBERS program. This is one step from being a mass-produced item that will make satellite affordable for the third world.
There is actually a very major trip by the Chinese president Hu through Brazil, Argentina and Chile right now.
Note the aerospace contract with Argentina. The article doesn’t elaborate but I wonder what it might be.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/117554/1/.html
China to invest US$20b in Argentina
Related News »
• Argentina seeks investment riches from China
• Chinese leader aims to boost trade in Argentine visit
• President Hu’s South American tour raises hopes of Chinese riches
more>>BUENOS AIRES : China’s President Hu Jintao and Argentine President Nestor Kirchner signed cooperation agreements as Chinese companies pledged investments of 20 billion US dollars.
Chinese companies would develop railway and aerospace projects and send tourists to the South American country on holiday packages.
. . .
GoldenDragonWhen it said Brazil, S.Korea, USA, China, etc.. I figured it would be some kind of armed turboprop or trainer aircraft like the Super Tucano.. however then it said fighter jet.. I can assume it might be asking for the FC-1, A-50, and AMX?
AMX, A-50, F-16 and FC-1 would be my assumptions too. Though the Air International report posted earlier in the thread stated that there are still up to six countries expressing interest in the F-7PG/G variant.
GoldenDragonA response an earlier post on the WS-10. According to nearly all sources, the WS-10 began development in the mid-1980s. This was a period of heavy Westernization in China. It’s the same period as the JH-7 with its RR engines, the Grumman Peace Pearl project with the J-8II, the Blackhawks and many other things such as the K-8 being designed around the Garrett engine.
The 1980s was also a Cold War era between China and the then USSR. There is no chance of the WS-10 being based on the AL-31.
There is a recurrent opinion among some Chinese that the WS-10 origin came from studying the Western civilian turbofans, especially the GE CF6 and CFM56 which China assembled and subcontracted for (these were used in Shanghai made MD-90s.)
The other opinions include Chinese study of the PW F-100 from Pakistan’s F-16s, the Garret and the Rolls Royce for the JH-7.
My opinion is that the WS-10’s origins is a combination of all of them. The Spey didn’t have thrust to weight ratio needed for a fighter engine but China did have the most complete technical plans for it. The F-100 was availlable except for study. But China did assemble the big GE civilian engines and the Garret (really a civilian engine) which must have influenced the design and concepts – especially that of long service life – of the WS-10.
Also, China actually had quite a bit of experience with turbofans such as the WS-5, WS-6 and especially the ambition WS-8 which “was a front-fan, axial flow, two spool turbofan type with a short bypass duct developed by the Chengdu Aero-Engine Factory and Shanghai Aero-Engine Factory during the early 1970s as the proposed power plant for the domestic Y-10 heavy transport aircraft.” (1)
So even though the WS-10 will be replacing the AL-31 in the J-11B and the J-10, it almost certainly doesn’t have the same origins.
—————————————————–
Notes:
(1) Jane’s China’s Aerospace and Defense Iindustry (2000)
GoldenDragonPossible new interest in the FC-1 (or F-7G) from South America?
A bit of a surprise because I couldn’t think of Chinese equipment bought by Colombia before except for the Y-12 light transport. The only Chinese jet considered by a Latin America country was the K-8 trainer by Venezuela.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/10169764.htm
Miami Herald
November 13, 2004Defense Chiefs Seek To Buy Fighter Jets
BOGOTA – Colombia on Friday formally opened international bidding for a
$234 million contract to supply 24 fighter jets, officials said.Defense officials held a first round of meetings with plane makers from
Brazil, China, the United States and South Korea on Friday to establish
the bidding rules, said Interior Minister Jorge Alberto Uribe.The awarding of multimillion dollar defense contracts in Colombia has
in the past generally been shrouded in secrecy and often marred by corruption
allegations, but this year the government says it wants the process
open to scrutiny.”We want this process to be absolutely transparent, without influences
of any type,” Uribe told reporters.The fighters will be deployed against Marxist rebels who have waged a
40-year struggle to topple the government. The government hopes to have
the new planes in 2007.
GoldenDragonVery interesting picts on the J-10 and FC-1. If they are showing the J-10 on TV, they should have declared the J-10 official at Zhuhai if they had any inkling of good marketing.
The 01 prototype has a radar in the first FC-1 pict above. This is important because the radome, according to earlier articles, carried no radar but a heavy weight during the initial test flight. In fact, different weights in the nose were used to test the FCS. We saw pictures of the 01’s tailplanes in extreme angles. Those indicate compensation for the weight in the nose. 01 was expected to be used for flight and aerodynamics. The third flying protoype (05) was suppose to have the radar and weapons systems.
With picture of iron bombs on 03 and a radar on 01, it seems that the flight characteristics are already worked out and avioncs are being tested already.
GoldenDragonWhoa, the second thread became overbloated only after a month of postings!
The first post to picts, news and specualtion part deux was only on October 13, 2004 😀
GoldenDragonFlood, move this silly thing back to General Discussion, please.
GoldenDragonIt looks like it was a repeat of last November where a Ming class surfaced after tracking joint Japanese-American exercises.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20041112wo02.htm
‘China may have been flaunting its power’
Hidemichi Katsumata / Yomiuri Shimbun Staff Writer
A senior officer of the Maritime Self-Defense Force has described the intrusion into Japanese waters by a suspected Chinese Navy nuclear submarine Wednesday as a possible attempt to flex China’s naval muscles.
In waters off Okinawa Prefecture where the intrusion occurred, the MSDF and the U.S. Navy’s 7th Fleet conducted a 10-day joint drill starting late October.
The drill was a rehearsal for operations against submarines in shallow waters. It was a large-scale maneuver, involving a total of five submarines from Japan and the United States.
On Nov. 5, during the drill, two Chinese Navy vessels, one of which was a rescue ship for submarines, were spotted in the Pacific Ocean about 300 kilometers southeast of Tanegashima island, Kagoshima Prefecture, close to the site of the drill.
. . .
In November last year, a Chinese submarine surfaced in the Osumi Strait in Kagoshima Prefecture while Japan-U.S. drills were being held.
But the latest incident was different in that the submarine did not surface at regular intervals for ventilation, which a diesel-powered submarine must do.
A senior Defense Agency official said, “It’s highly likely that it’s a Han-class nuclear-powered attack submarine,” adding, “With the dispatch of a nuclear submarine, the Chinese Navy’s operations are in full swing.”
GoldenDragonEh? Didn’t agat deny any involvement? :confused: :rolleyes:
Notice Douglas Barrie say “Agat is likely” to have been involved. He has not evidence but simply assumes it is “likely.” He also say that the R-77’s seeker “may well be” a baseline for the SD-10.
He could have and should have simply gotten a quote from either AGAT or Louyang.
This is the same false assumption being applied again. Barrie obviously hasn’t called either AGAT or Louyang. He’s not being reporter in the article but an opinion writer.
And in my opinion he “may well be” a rather bad reporter by not quoting an official from either AGAT or Louyang.
When you are dealing with companies and products that are NAMED just call the companies up and quote an official. Otherwise, anyone on this board could speculate just as well or better than Barrie.
It’s one thing to speculate on things that are currently hidden. But the SD-10 is for export. We know the two companies allegedly involved. All that material is there so you shouldn’t have to use words like “likely” or “may well be.”
Call them up and ask them which was what Jane’s did with AGAT and Richard Fisher did with Louyang.
And if you are working for AW&ST, you better have access to those companies. Otherwise, your reports are worth about as much as an internet poster 😀
GoldenDragonMaybe the sub belongs to a supervillian organization like SMERSH.
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3745701
Hunt for Red November
“PA”
Japan’s military shadowed an unidentified submarine that entered its territorial waters today but officials said they had not yet figured out what country the intruder was from.
Tokyo put its navy on alert on Wednesday after spotting the submarine off the southern island of Okinawa, and sent a reconnaissance plane and destroyer to follow its movements.
The submarine, which spent two hours in Japanese waters before leaving, was heading north today, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda.
He refused to confirm reports that defence officials believe the vessel is from China, saying: “We don’t have enough conclusive evidence to make a determination.”
He said it would take some time to identify the submarine because it has not surfaced and did not appear to be heading toward a specific country.
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said she didn’t know if the vessel was Chinese.
“The Chinese side is now paying close attention to this issue and I do not approve or encourage any random suppositions on this question,” Zhang said. “As to whether this is a Chinese submarine, I do not know and I cannot provide you any information on this.”
Japanese public broadcaster NHK said defence officials suspected it was a Chinese Han-class nuclear submarine, based on an analysis of the sounds it was making.
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11357156%255E1702,00.html
China ‘no clues’ over mystery sub
From correspondents in Beijing
November 11, 2004CHINA today said it knew nothing about a submarine that entered Japanese waters near a disputed gas field sparking a high seas chase, but was watching the issue closely.
“We have seen the reports and are watching the situation closely,” foreign ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said.
“Of course the relevant departments are maintaining close contact to watch this incident.”
She refused to either confirm or deny it was a Chinese vessel.
The submarine was detected early yesterday in Japanese waters near islands disputed with China about 300 kilometres south-west of Okinawa.
GoldenDragonOr it might have been traveling near the surface intentionally to send a message.
The area around Okinawa is disputed.
Actually, nearly exactly one year ago, a Chinese Type 35 sub surfaced explicitly 40 kms off the Japanese coast during a large US/Japanese joint exercise . It wasn’t detected until it broke surface even though it was probably monitoring US and Japanese warships for some time.
But there is no proof positive yet that the vessel in the latest incidence is a chinese sub.
GoldenDragonChina’s FC-1 fighter advances as Chengdu seeks buyers
——————————————————————————–
Flight International 09 Nov 2004
Chengdu Aircraft is on schedule to deliver the first FC-1/Super-7 light fighter to the Pakistani air force next year, having already racked up over 300 flight test hours on three prototype aircraft.
A most interesting post, indeed!
Is 04 up and flying already? The 01 and 03 are the only ones known to be flying. 04 was suppose to fly next year. 02 is for static tests.
Eight of these will be assembled by Chengdu and eight by the Pakistani Aeronautical Complex (PAC). Pakistan has an ultimate requirement for about 150 of the aircraft, which is also being evaluated by China and Egypt.
Egypt has been reported as interested several times in the Chinese newsgroups but this would the first time in the western press.
China also requires hundreds of new lightweight fighters but has several other options.
Chengdu test flew the F-7MF in 2002, but the aircraft has since been parked. Chengdu continues to make improvements to the aircraft and is lobbying the government to fund more flight tests.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is a flying prototype of the MF already? In 2002?! This would put the plane before the FC-1. An actually flying MF had been claimed only in the newsgroups and boards but never by any serious publication.
Le says F-7MG production will continue for several years as there is still a requirement in China and sales could potentially be made to six foreign militaries. The aircraft is already operated by China and Pakistan and Le says the first of 12 aircraft on order for Bangladesh will be delivered by early 2005.
There were quite a few reports of the F-7PG gaining interests back when the PAF began receiving them in 2001 and Bangladesh was one of them as well as Zambabwe. I haven’t heard much since.
Bangladesh had recently put out a tender for new fighters. They had said that the FC-1 was the lead candidate.
Now, the question is: did the F-7PG win this contract (this means the F-7PG had beaten out the FC-1 for the BAF contract) or were these 12 F-7PGs fullfilling an earlier order and the BAF could still end up with FC-1 also?
Le says four FC-1 prototypes, “three flying and one test article”, are now being tested and the flight envelope should be completed by next October. “We plan to complete all of this by next year, maybe the third quarter,” he says.
So three prototypes ARE flying!!! Maybe when they say next year for the 04 it’s the weapons integration.
Chengdu had hoped to fly one of its FC-1 prototypes at the Zhuhai air show last week but did not get the necessary approval from the Chinese government.
So that’s why the FC-1 never shown up live this year.
Also absent at the show was Chendu’s J-10 multirole fighter. The company has been hoping to take the wraps off the design for the last few years, but China remains reluctant to even acknowledge the programme exists.
BRENDAN SOBIE / ZHUHAI
The signs from the last air show in 2002, according to Richard Fisher, was that CAC already greatly upset about the J-10 being underwraps.
The blocking of the FC-1 flying ptype at Zhuhai AFTER CAC had sent out signals that a live bird would be there must have CAC at a boiling point.
The sad truth is that the Chinese government and secrecy don’t quite mesh with the firms’ need to advertize and sell.
GoldenDragonThe relevant quotes in electronic form posted by one of our mods here, Google 🙂
19th August 2004, 15:57
AGAT denies any knowledge of China utilizing their seeker. From tomorrow’s edition of Jane’s Missiles and Rockets.
“Recent press reports on China’s new SD-10 radar-guided air-to-air missile have commented on the similarity between the front section of the Chinese missile and that of the Vympel R-77/RVV-AE (AA-12 ‘Adder’). This has led to suspicions that the seeker of the Chinese missile is based on the Russian weapon’s AGAT 9B-1348 active-radar seeker, or is a customised 9B-1348 variant developed for China by AGAT.
Export contracts have conditions of confidentiality and information can only be released by the agreement of both sides, commented Akopyan. However, the Institute is not working with the Chinese, he said, dismissing the concept that the SD-10 has an AGAT seeker as “hot air” and “a fantasy of reporters”.
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