DeinoAndreas, on SDF they saythat pics “taken in January but recently released”
Yes … I saw them at first posted at the CDF … then I posted them here and saw right a minute later that additional note at the SDF … I added this then at the Secret-Project Forum, but didn’t cerrect it here; Sorry.
Cheers, Deino
DeinoHolydays are over …..:D ๐ฎ
Deino…I honestly don’t see a problem. CAC & Salut worked together before (J-10/AL-31FN). 100+ J-10s are flying. So why not use modified/uprated Salut AL-31F until the WS-15 is ready? WS-15 is said to be progressing smoothly but will be several years until it is ready for production
That’s agood point !
Does anyone have info when the FN-version was revealed for the first time as a export-product especially developed for a foreign fighter !
As such, why not yet another specialized model for the J-20.
Deino
Deino๐ฎ
What a magnificent picture !!!
I need that one laaaarge and without watermark.
Deino
DeinoIn general I think about the the M-346 “Master”, the Yak-130 … and the Hongdu L-15 !:diablo:
But IAF and AlphaJets ???
Deino
DeinoHi, long time no see…
Hi … and nice to have You back !
2) Chengdu is definitely busy. chinese new year holiday is over. J-20 should be in their flight test center in Yanliang now.
But don’t You think that such a “movement” would have been noticed ?
4) I would believe “Maya” more than any… ANY…speculative western babble w.r.t. J-20’s engine.
… so then it’s simply a “special treated” AL-31F/FN !!?? ๐
Deino
DeinoDoubt it. US and russian spy satelites have most likely monitored the Chinese air fields and proving grounds closely for years. An hypotetical earlier test flight should have been detected -and leaked to media– in one way or the other.
You might be correct … but maybe not !
The modst important words are “… have most likely … … should have been detected … and leaked to media” !
In neither case You could be sure that they actualy noticed one, that they
a) actually got the correct time and noticed it
b) and if, that they leaked it to the media.
Once again … only “MAYBE” !!
Deino
Deino@
….
Pretty nice collection of all counter-arguments ! Thanks
And in the end I put together the argument for the one side … and here are the other ones !
Now again … only guesswork (But I like it ;))
Deino
DeinoDo we have any firm word on whether the engines in the prototype were AL-31FNs or WS-10Gs? Or, for that matter, whether there really are two airframes already?
Thanks!
No … to admit, we have nothing !!!
All we have is a lot of pictures showing two different engine – esp. afterburner – details and some minor changes on the airframe. But to admit besides some reports NO picture of two J-20.
Regarding the engines, there are endless debates around:
– the number of pedals (18 in the WS-10A / 16 on the AL-31F/FN and strangely 16 on that strange engine)
– the overall size,
– the inner afterburner details (if visible at all)
we have some reports from China (including a friend of mine at AVIC) telling me that this is definitly a new Chinese engine … but also other reports about a special treated AL-31F/FN.
IMO one thing often ommitted is the discussion wether an F or FN is built in. IMO that’s not unimportant but also IMO easy to answer, since the F has all the gear-boxes on to – like on the early WS-10 we’ve seen … the FN in contrast has them on the bottom as seen on all (?) Western types and also the J-10. As such I think the most likely option at least on the pictures where we clearly see AL-31 this is most likely a FN-model, since they are available at CAC and the latest WS-10A has all the gear-boxes on the bottom.
Otherwise I really don’t know what to think … this long break between the first flight and now … is at least strange !
Deino
DeinoHey guys … let’s go back to the topic !
Here’s an interesting report about the Engine that “supposely” powered the J-20 … http://club.china.com/data/thread/1011/2722/22/09/7_1.html
To admit, I’m at the moment quite “unsure” about its reliablility, but it is more detailed than anything these “fan-boys” usually post. Additionally it matches quite well the predictions “Maya” tells since some time (at SDF). As such … judge Yourself.
Just a short summary:
– This improved WS-10B shares 70% of common parts with the regular WS-10
– engine development began in 2003
– core was successfully tested in 2005
– The first full engine (including nozzle) was delivered in 2007 and successfully completed simulated high altitude testing in 2009
– testing of the engine at around 2010
– it says the engine has 23 guide vanes (WS-10 has 15 ?? WS-10A has 17) and has also 16 nozzle pedals (both WS-10 and WS-10A have 18 !!)
– thrust: 138 kN wet thrust, 86 kN military thrust
– T/W ratio is 8.5:1
Deino :confused:
DeinoYou’re rambling Deino and I don’t know what the frigg you’re on about.
Go and have a lie down or something.
Maybe You are correct, I had a very hard day, but in my opinion You “overestimate” the T-50 and call the other ones, who “admire” the J-20 “fan-boys” … or other unpolite names.
On the other side at least try to understand these “Fan-boys” if they tell You not to overestimate the T-50.
In my opinion both sides are wrong, biased, have a pre-fixed opinion and only try to argue with those “agruments” or guesworks” that fit their theory; BOTH !!
None of us has a really complete inseight into any of these projects … and if one really would have one into one of them … he surely won’t for the other.
As such comparisons and “Penis-contests” are worthless, uselesss … stupid.
Can You agree with that ?
Deino
PS: Otherwise I’m really more than interested, who brought this “rumour” oin the table, the J-20 is based on Mikoyan’s loosing contender. :diablo:
Deino@ Jล Asakura !
So You know these secrets we all dare to know ??? But since You are not allowed to tell, we simply have to believe ??? How stupic can one be ?
Does Your secret knowledge include any specific detail nof the J-20 ?? … the T-50 or the Sino-Rissian connections in that area ???
Sorry, but simply to tell “I know” and You are stupid, blind or both is too stupid for me.
….
Deino, you’re most welcome to trawl through the PAK-FA threads since it’s first flight, if your memory needs refreshing- or could it be that now that the dust has settled over the J-20’s existence and (the somewhat tasteless) showboating & chest-beating has abated- any informed & critical analysis of your ‘flying-dragon’ is less than flattering?……whereas project PAK-FA grows ever more intriguing?
Can You proof ?
Sorry, but all I see – or read – is a second prototype of a much delayed programe. … and a surprising unveiling + first flight of two otherwise for all – Ohh not YOU – secret proects.
But I can ask You too:
….
Jล Asakura, you’re most welcome to trawl through the J-20 threads since it’s first flight, if your memory needs refreshing- or could it be that now that the dust has settled over the PAK-FA / T-50’s existence and (the somewhat tasteless) showboating & chest-beating has abated- any informed & critical analysis of your ‘flying-bear” is less than flattering?……whereas project J-20 grows ever more intriguing?
… and I can’t proof it too. ๐
@ rayrubik
Again, see my post above ! The F-35 offer came only much later and if the AMCA will ever fly …. only time will tell for all these types.
Deino
DeinoOh but I forgot, it is painted a cool black color and is touched up by the infamous Chinese photoshop machine. Totaly superior.
Tell me, who said it’s superior; is it ???
This little thing called the F-35, heard the US would be very happy if India joined.
Agreed … but that was – as far as I know – not on the agende, when India joined the T-50.
Funny how you don’t consider Showtimes pathetically amateurish claims to be lacking in proof.
Funny how you don’t consider SHowtimes pathetically amateurish claims to be lacking in proof.
Agreed again … there are some on both sides, who think their “project” is superior ! At least I don’t do so …
The ball rolls both ways Deino.
YES … and since really no-one knows the “rteal” technical capabilities … these tiny little secrets within each design … the materials … the tactical requirements, the technical limitations of each manufactor … budget … and so on … these “Penis-contests” are simply stupid.
Can You agree with me ?
Deino
DeinoYour T-50 analysis, is amateurish to say the least. But whatever helps you sleep easy at night. …
O.k. … they try a better – to say more professional – one ! Baked by proofs.
As I said I know no-one here who can proof any of these claims. :diablo:
… I guess the Indians, who have intimate access to the details of the program, have decided that billions ARe indeed in order for the program. But you clearly know better.
For sure … since it it was their only chance to get anything in terms of a fifth generation type. :p Or do You know another possibility ?
Deino
DeinoChina was never invited to join Sukhoi’s T-50 programme, a proviso of Indian involvement was that China would not be sold the type either.
The sources are Pogosyan and very senior IAF officials who were the key negotiators of the deal (India’s biggest ever defence programme/spending allocation).Maybe if the J-20’s that good the Russians should have been begging to join Chengdu’s programme :rolleyes:…or maybe the Russkies new better, the guys at AW&ST strongly suspect they did- (they say the evidence suggests MiG designed the friggin thing, that Russian guy photographed next to one of the ‘designers’ probably worked @ SibNIA). I agree with them.
Finish your lunch showtime, I expect a full technical analysis of your claim. Don’t hold back, PM me if need be.
Honestly, but I think Your statement is rather arrogant. ๐ก
You always want sources, links or so … and now all we have are two “sources” contradicting each other … we have a “non-Chinese” looking man on a photo and some vague “claims” by AW&ST, Janesโs (esp. in mind of their reputation on CHinese stuff) and others … we have Russian “rumours” – and here I’ve never seen any proof, link or source – that the J-20 is Mikoyan’s loosing PAK-FA contender.
Again, honestly nothing serious in my mind especially if You look on the other side: Here we have an already flown “prototype” or demonstrator, different to everything we’ve seen from Russia before and with some closer similarities to some certain US and other Chinese types. We have seen wind-tunnel-models in China of similar configured models before … and – right in the same manner as Russian sources “claim and deny” – we have Chinese one who “deny and claim”.
Are we really “capable” of discussing this – and the other “typical” questions on that board – only based on the few facts or better to say rumours ??? … can we really judge and calculate the RCS of this and other types flying around under test at the moment only based on a few photographs ??? … Does anyone here really have an insight either from Sukhoi or Chengdu … or is it simply guesswork added with “I have read, that someone else said” ? It only depends on the own point of view and “wishfull-thinking” what some here want to believe or want to deny.
Guys it’s simply ridiculous … but anyway funny to read.
Deino
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