N-LCA roll-out tomorrow..looking forward to seeing this bird, although NP-1 is a twin-seater so it’ll look quite similar to the PV-5 twin seat prototype that flew earlier this year. NP-2 will be the single seater naval prototype.

pic from Livefist blog.

Thanks for posting … what are the misiles under the wings ??

AA-11, a HARM ??? … and what ASM … ???

Deino

Presence or absence of a hook means little or nothing… most modern “small” combat aircraft, from US to European to yes, Russian, have a hook for use with emergency arresting gear on land runways.

The F-15 & F-16 have them, as do lots of other non-carrier “fast jets”.

But a HOOK under a Flanker means everything !

I agree with You that it’s not very clear … but IMO not “someone in the background”.

Deino

Vote for one of four paint schemes for J-10 of Ba Yi team.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/nz/j10tuzhuang/index.shtml

IMO they are all ugly … It has to be something in RED and with a DRAGON … something like that !

Deino

I would like to add two interesting comments from SDF … esp. since “kiwinopal” still can’t or don’t want to answer simple questions.

The first one from “crobato” …

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/china-flanker-thread-ii-55-3720.html#post121144

To begin with, we need to clarify how the Sukhoi organization works. Its not like Boeing or Lockheed.

Sukhoi, and so is MiG, are design bureaus. This means they’re a company whose main product is brain work. If you’re familiar with Silicon Valley, many companies are this way. IP companies with no manufacturing.

Within Sukhoi’s orbit are a number of large satellite companies that actually do the manufacture of their products. The big three is NAPO, KnAAPO and Irkut. These companies are independent from Sukhoi; independent and yes, with self serving goals for themselves too. These firms even compete with each other on the market. Sukhoi licenses the designs for them to make:

NAPO does the Su-34 type

KnAAPO does the Su-27 single seaters along with variants thereof, such as Su-35, and Su-33 carrier jets.

Irkut does the Su-27 double seaters along with variants thereof, aka Su-30MKI. Note how NAPO, KnAAPO and Irkut are forking off their own Flanker variants, to the point that these variants compete against each other, Irkut’s Su-30MK vs. KnAAPO’s Su-35. KnAAPO has gone to the point of hatching their own double seaters – Su-30MKK and the double seater Su-35.

So, Shenyang AC licenses the design from Sukhoi itself, but to get the single seater kits, they have to have a separate deal with KnAAPO. And to get the double seater kits, they have to make another deal with Irkut.

For the parts themselves, China has to deal with other manufacturers separately, Salyut and Saturn for engines, NIIP for the radar and so on.

Note: if China licenses the Su-27 design, it does not mean they have licensed the radar, the engines, the opto-mechanical sight and so on and on. So China has to purchase these separately on separate contracts until China can fill in the blanks with domestic IP equivalents.

If this is a license, China pays Sukhoi a fee for every J-11B made. Even if the plane is 100% Chinese parts. That’s not the problem. The problem is that the Russians think they make better money selling their own home grown and made variety. I believe Sukhoi may get a commission cut from the Russian parts contractors themselves from Chinese deals related to the J-11. Nothing bad about that. That’s just business. So if China, lets say, buy engines from Salyut for the J-11, Sukhoi gets a cut. Of course, if China buys engines from Salyut for the J-10, Sukhoi doesn’t. That’s why the engine contracts are always separate, specific to the plane, and may not have the same unit price.

The Russians also do not understand the global IP business, coming from their Communist background. That’s why they went around trying to sue countries for the AK-47 “patents”. Which as you know, didn’t hold. When their defense industries were at the brink and desperate for money, you can understand why they would patent troll.

The Chinese side is this: they believed that the J-11 deal is like the Harbin Z-8 deal, which they always hold as the model for licenses. They will take the basic design and modify for their own use, substituting domestic parts if needed and use foreign parts if necessary. The licensor gets a cut for every unit made. The Chinese have been mentioning the Z-8 model for a long time.

And another comment from “tphuang” … following this question:

Where is the evidence that Russia is getting any kind of cut on the J-11B production, or that the license cost included a 100% technology transfer from Sukhoi, or that the Chinese military modeled the J-11 deal to be like the Z-8 deal?

This doesn’t get discussed a lot in the English press, but it does get discussed a lot among the people with no-hows on Chinese bbs. Basically, when Soviet Union disbanded, the Russian military industry was in a disarray. They gave away a lot of technology to China without much organization. According to what I hear from people really involved in the Chinese aero industry, they basically got away with robbery in the deal they signed with Russia. The package they signed for J-11 was really comprehensive. I think what happened is that it took a while for the Russians to realize that they got totally ripped off on the deal by China, so they are regretting and making a lot of noise about it. And from kanwa’s January issue, it’s clear that they are still delivering parts to China and getting paid (or have already been paid) for that. Of course, Russians want to stop China from doing that for a variety of reasons:
1) they don’t know what kind of modifications China is putting on flankers, so they can’t make sure that what China has is not better than what Russia has. And remember, there is still risks in the long term of Russian/China conflict

2) they want China to use their proposed upgrades which would use components like the ones on Su-27SM (except downgraded). It’s costing their suppliers money that China is not using the Russian proposed weapons upgrade package

3) they want to make noise to prevent China from exporting flankers

4) they want to make sure that China will pay for royalty once the 200 units have been produced. And part of their concerns is that they have no clue how many flankers China is producing right now.

I think 2) is probably the largest reason

Only for the completeness of this discussion.

Deino 😉

Even if kiwinopal won’t cooperate I did my own search … and I have to admit in this point of the RED Question I was wrong ! :eek::(

Following “crobato” – one of the big-shrimps on that topic …

They licensed to build the Su-27. All that intellectual property and licensing, I believe, was bought for 2 billion US$.

The 200 kits are actually a separate agreement meant to support the first. They are not part of the 2 billion for the license and are paid separately.

… I stand corrected ! 🙁 (but still searching for a real source !)

But now on to the next issues … Is there any information available about the price of such a “complete kit” ?? and even more about the % of Russian parts / Chinese parts of each block, which – and even here are most information are contradicting – from which aircraft a complete 100% Chinese license was planned (or if ever so), since some sources say at least 60% of Russian parts were emanded for the whole production of 200 ac.

Thanks in advance for Your help,
Deino

PS: Besides just one last question … and hopefully You could answer this one: What’s Your opinion on the latest Combat-Aircraft report about the Chinese history “haavarla” quoted ?? It is also something written, published and printed in an IMO most respected magazine … so what do You think ?

Could You just be so kind and answer that simple question ??

Can anyone show me where the “ignore-button” is for that guy.

…

here they explain why the J-11B is an illegal product

China has not signed a copyright agreement with Russia and is producing the J-11B aircraft, effectively a carbon copy of the Su-27SK Flanker. Beijing even exports the plane to Pakistan without getting a permit from Sukhoi, which holds the patent for the Su planes, or paying royalties to it.

here you can say Pkaistan ahs not recieved a single J-11, but they mention royalties and license.

…

Really with that “source” You completely ruined the last pieces of Your credibility … I’ve never seen a J-11 in PAF-service and most likely the will never be one, regardless what the Russian media is telling You.

Oh … Yes, I just noticed Yo added a short remark. But why to You think the last part of that sentence could be taken for granted, if the first part is completly BS ??

You really don’t want to discuss .. You only want to re-re-repost Your opinion .. and that’s is.

Deino

Once again for the last time !

GIVE ME A LINK; A SOURCE … and nothing more on text, I think we both wrote much too much (and everytime the same things) … simply a link !

Deino

….

Shenyang paid for the right to make the Su-27 in China, only that the materials and labour was paid by the chinese.

China paid for the right to build it legally and that included blueprints, machinery and tooling.

…

So You think they paid $2.5 billion only for the right to produce them ???
In the end 200 delivered kits … what do You think would this cost additionally ?? … and why can’t You still give a source for YOUR claim, since that is no-where else written.

Deino:D