:confused: :confused:

But You can’t compare the development time of a completely new design (Rafale / Typhoon) with the development time of an updated version of already tested model (even if the resulting fighters may be in the same “generation”)

Why not the first generation Eagles vs. first generation Flanker or the updated F-15C (ASEA) vs. Su-27BM (Su-35) ?

Then it’s for sure the Europeans have a much longer development time … again apples and oranges.

Deino

…
They were doing much better than the west till the fall of U.S.S.R

Thanks … would be interesting to see some comparable dates for the Western types !

Anyway the question remains as if everything is now ‘back on track’ and if Sukhoi can repeat these golden times ???
Keeping in mind the latest modern type, the Su-34 is surely haperded by collapse of the SU, but are You sure that everything is so fine again, that with the PAK-FA everything will be better and faster than with comparable Western typs. :confused:

Deino

Just something to think about … even if not 100% representative its a comparison / list made by “Scorpion” (via the FlugzeugForum) of time between first flight and service introduction – meaning earliest date of delivery (and not IOC) of several recent types:

http://www.flugzeugforum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=4550&page=5

JAS 39
first flight 1988
service introduction 1996
= 8 years

Rafale
first flight 1991
service introduction 2000
= 9 years

Eurofighter
first flight 1994
service introduction 2003
= 9 years

F-22
first flight 1997
service introduction 2003
= 6 years

For several types we have to add some additional time as they flew at first as a technology demonstrator :

Rafale A 1986 = 14 years
EAP 1986 = 17 years
YF-22 1990 = 13 years

And now – even with the severe circumstances in Russia between collapse of the SU, …

Su-34
first flight 1990
service introduction 2006
= 16 years

…

So one may ask if even if we agree on this year for the PAK-FA’s first flight to 2017 for service entry and if the first PAK-FA prototype really represents a final serial standard (??!) are very, very demanding … and I would say at least optimistic !

Even if we have to account the experiences and the knowledge gained thru the Su-47 or MiG MFI and keeping in mind how far they proceed with other sectors like powerplant, avionics, materials, weapons, FCS, …

A hefty schedule I would say !

Deino :rolleyes:

Deino, the sentence ending “…we expect to start work so that the aircraft is inducted by 2017” does not mean a first flight in 2017. It reiterates 2012 in the development timeline.

Also, the Head of HAL has already signed the General Contracts and detailed Indian involvement and variations in the 2 types.

Hmmm … maybe You are right, but reading the first line of the report says clearly “aim to fly joint fifth-generation fighter by 2017″ !??

So you’re getting excited over old, rehashed bull.

Savvy?

Anyway … we all make mistakes and this is not the first time You are getting personally by calling names and insulting.

Maybe You are getting too excited if anything will proceed as planned.

Deino 😡

Hmmm … and who always said the PAK-FA-MKI wont be delayed ??

India and Russia aim to fly joint fifth-generation fighter by 2017
By Siva Govindasamy

India and Russia hope to induct their joint fifth-generation stealth fighter by 2017, with officials from both countries hoping to iron out their differences in the coming months and sign a development contract by mid-2009.

“There have been differences between the two air forces, as both have specific requirements,” says M Fakruddin, director for corporate planning and marketing at Hindustan Aeronautics. HAL will lead the Indian side of the programme. “These issues will be sorted out soon and by the middle of the year we expect to start work so that the aircraft is inducted by 2017.”

The countries began talks in 2007 to develop a fifth-generation fighter based on the Sukhoi PAK-FA, which Russia hopes will have its first flight by the end of 2009 and is pegged as a challenger to the Lockheed Martin F-22 and Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Last year HAL and Russian arms export agency Rosoboronexport agreed to study the joint development of a fighter. Since then, however, there have been differences over the aircraft’s design and New Delhi’s level of involvement in the project.

“Two major issues must be resolved. India was asked to invest a lot of money, but is unhappy with the level of access to sensitive technology that the Russians plan to give in return. In addition, the Indian air force is keen on a two-seat fighter, while Russia prefers to focus on a single-seater,” says a New Delhi-based observer.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/05/322126/india-and-russia-aim-to-fly-joint-fifth-generation-fighter-by.html

2017 … not very optimistic 😮

Deino

So true all that. Its not about market dynamics or offering something that others do not, its all about showing Indian pride. 🙁

Reminds me of Germany’s Ambitious plans in the 1930s for building things which are bigger and better in compariosn.

… or like the Chinese Dong-Feng types between 1958-59 !!!

Deino

Hey … just as predicted in the JH-7-text, one of the next units to receive the Flounder will be the 11. Division !!

Today confirmed ….

Cheers, Deino