Maybe :highly_amused: … but to admit I do not hope but fear that the current and most recent rising Russian belligerence will rise additional regional military spending especially in Western-Europe !

Anyway a certain counterweight from India and Korea against China wouldn’t be far from bad. … as such I really don’t understand why both do not cooperate and even more Your idea of Brazil is brilliant.

Deino

I bet it has flown by now too. Any inflight footage available..telemetry ?

Looks like a 2 -seater to me.

As far as I know not ! Maiden flight is planned for only later this year or even earlier next one.

Deino, once again go back and read that link (it’s not Russian btw.). The “earmarked for” document wasn’t from the Russian media but was an official, internal UAC document. I, frankly, care not for the babblings of RIA et al. Anyways, you seem to be upset by the points I raised.

I would like to add, however, that the Chinese aviation industry is a perfect example of how simply throwing huge amounts of cash at an [engineering] problem is no guarantee of success. The ‘success’ it has experienced thus far is from copying/counterfeiting (Lavi, Su-33) consultancy (Project 941/WZ-10, Yakovlev/L-15 and no doubt J-20), and probably industrial espionage (J-31).

Also, if memory serves, you were most prominent and vociferous in rubbishing these claims until evidence to the contrary was presented. I find it truly remarkable that several years ago you derided J-10/Lavi comparisons as pure speculation and propaganda from jealous quarters and drunk russians- yet recently presented a pic of a Lavi prototype (in China) with J-10’s chief designer standing next to it with a huge grin on his face- as a World exclusive!! Incredible!!

If you don’t care to apologise to posters here who warned you of such a possibility (and bore the brunt of your emotions), will you apologise if and when significant Russian involvement in the J-20 comes to light?

One of the main reasons the Chinese ‘aviation success story’ is largely illusory, is due to the lack of an organic industry with a long-established know-how base. The same can be said of other wannabes such as India and Japan.

With these points in mind shouldn’t the Russian aviation industry be applauded for simply staying alive in the 1990s, consolidating in the 2000s and now in the near future will bear fruits of it’s investments? Conversely to China, don’t you think they have achieved much with relatively little funding? I do, and I think much of it is down to the aforementioned ‘organic base’, that’s why the Chinese continue to make use of it.

Sorry, but either You should go back and read again, maybe even apologise – not to me since I won’t care about – and try to understand.

1. An official document by UAC is exactly what I meant: It will, it should, it …. but does it in the end and even more when ? As such in reliability it differes not if from UAC or Ria ! Sorry.

2. It is surely a difference to say the J-10 is based on technology and consultations (what I never dismissed) or a clone (what it surely never is) … and even more when did I post an image of a Lavi in China ??? Sorry, but You either You are simply too lazy to understand when it does not fit Your phantasy or to overexcited if it might fit Your dreams ?? YES, there were contacts between China and IAI, I never denied that …. and this image simply is the best photographic proof for that so far. A Chinese delegation in Israel (I hope now You get it !!), but I still deny to see the J-10 a Lavi-clone.

3. Even more why will each and every discussion on such a topic become penis-contest ??? I simply don’t get it. It was me he questioned Tom’s statement, it was me You argued that China made a lot of progress in certain field but they surely lack in others … as YOU are the only one who drives always that generalization claim since Russia is better here it has to be better here too !?
Overall in regard to China You are fully correct, but either my English is too bad You whenever I write something You simply don’t read until the end right after the first part You don’t like: Here I agree “is a perfect example of how simply throwing huge amounts of cash at an [engineering] problem is no guarantee of success.” … but in other parts not !

As such I think we both should end that discussion, You have Your opinion and I have mine (which is strangely not that different to Yours if You would care to read carefully) … have a nice day or even more some day dreams on the Russian hyper-super-capabilities !

Deino

Here it is for a better understanding of what Tom meant !

To begin with I add my original statement regarding the J-20’s possible early service entry in advance:

To admit a good question and one of the biggest concerns that has already been discussed on so many blogs and forums esp. in regard to service entry date. IMO there is still a big maybe even huge cap between the Russians and the Chinese Industries but this gap has been narrowed and in some certain fields maybe closed.

… and his reply !

Actually, I would say that the Chinese industrial capabilities are meanwhile massively surpassing those of Russia. Alone because of industrial management skills, not to talk about general levels of discipline and organization, availability of know-how and – last, but not least – money. The Chinese have a massive industrial sector, and thus plenty of know-how in organizing and running related ops (and this from their top political leadership, down to shift-chiefs); the Russians, simply expressed, not.

What the Chinese are lacking are not ‘calculations of structues, calculation of RCS, dynamic loads and stress’: this was never their problem. It’s specific types of high-technology machinery, necessary to manufacture specific high-tech parts and assemblies to latest standards. For example, one of their major problems is machinery that is making turbine blades: they can make turbine blades as used 30-40 years ago, but still have problems with ‘latest’ technology, i.e. with making engines the way they are made today. Frankly speaking, that’s something ‘even’ Iranians can do (see domestically manufactured turbine blades and combustion chambers for TF-30s and J-79s). They (the Chinese, though Iranians too) also do not have all the necessary metallurgy-related material specifications (modern-day ‘aluminium’ and ‘steel’ are not ‘just aluminium’ or ‘just steel’; they are actually complex alloys including extremely specific amounts of plenty of ‘exotic’ materials, and then machined in very special ways, for example). And that’s why Russians are – meanwhile ‘only by a margin’ – ahead in regards of engines. The result is that Chinese engines similar in size and power-output are usually slightly heavier while providing less thrust than Russian engines.

I expect this problem to be solved quite soon, though.

In regards of avionics/electronics, they are already on-pair with Russians. Foremost, the Chinese are offering ‘more realistic’ systems. For example, Russian radars usually require imense power input, while having a relatively low processing capability. None of Chinese AI-radars necessitates a power-input that is surpassing the presently-available capacities of specific types by 2-3 (or more) times, like this is the case with specific of latest Russian-made radars. This means: they can be installed into aircraft as these are, already now, without any need for re-construction of internal structures, without the need for much stronger power generators, extra-large APUs etc. Compare this with the fact that built-in power generators of Su-30s simply can’t support radars like Pero and Bars to the full necessary capability; at best, they’re providing about 50% of necessary peak power, which in turn means that it’s useless to install such radars into any Su-30 without a major internal re-design, which in turn would need plenty of aerodynamic refinement too etc…

To admit I really hope that there would be a common united Arab-anti-ISIS effort to fight against these radicals …

Maybe to bring back some kind of reality or at least to stick to the facts this link might be useful !

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

Deino

Everything is closed for me till we figure out what is happening in Arabia. Forget JF-17 or just about anything else till we find a solution to this madness, in’sha’Allah (God Willing).

What use is the JF-17 when it cannot stop the murder of hundreds of children, the rape of thousands of women, the torture and oppression of entire populations. No use to me, no use to the Muslim world, no use to humanity.

Hmmm … even if I do not concur with MadRat’s statement completely that You might be “getting radicalized” and even more since I can understand Your feeling regarding the situation in Arabia, I cannot understand the connection in two points:

1. “What use is the JF-17 when it cannot stop the murder” … is a bit far off IMO since so far the JF-17 is a Pakistani bird esp. developed for the PAF and as such – even if surely aimed for the export market – not a game-changer in regard to what happens in that region.

2. even more important, if You still want to do a “good” book on that type, You surely do not have to leave out emotions in regard to describe that type’s history, development or overall itself, but beware of the inclusion of too much political opinion, politics and even more religion. This has to be a technical book, maybe a historical book based on facts … and not on whishes, opinion and believes.

Just my two cents,
Deino

and here it is, flying at the moment

Congrats to the guys at CAC !!!