Me too … it was that first CG-manupulated J-20 image … but now more !

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Regarding Su-35, Deino, is there a reliable State Chinese response? All I see is references to it in English media.

That’s exactly the point ! When the last huge arms deals were signed between Russia & China, then thi shappened usually durong top-meetings of the leaders … and these deals were soon thereafter officially confirmed. This time – strangely after these rumours were repeated over and over again Russian sources – they were this time only reported by Western ones and as usually one again and agin with exatctly or nearly exactly the same words (= copy & paste) ! As such I’m still very sceptical and thsi one seems t prove my daubts:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130325/DEFREG03/303250014/Russia-No-Deal-Sale-Fighters-Subs-China?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

TAIPEI — Russia is denying Chinese media claims that Moscow and Beijing have signed agreements to sell Russian-made arms and military technology to China, including 24 Su-35 multirole fighter jets and four Amur-class diesel submarines.

During a recent visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping to Moscow from Friday to Sunday, no discussions took place regarding “military-technical cooperation” issues, the ITAR-TASS news agency reported Monday. This was in response to an earlier report by China’s CCTV on the same day.

“The Kremlin is officially denying even discussing arms trade during Xi’s visit,” said Vasiliy Kashin, a China military specialist at the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST). “In Russia-China relations, specific arms trade contracts are almost never discussed by the top leaders, just the general approaches.”

Another defense industry source in Russia said there are strong reservations about going forward on the memorandum of understanding signed in December to explore the sale of the twin-engine Su-35s and Amur submarines to China.

China intentionally violated intellectual property right (IPR) agreements when it copied and manufactured Russia’s Su-27 fighter as the J-11B, according to Russia.

In 1995, China secured a production deal with Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed the J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. In 2006, Russia canceled the deal after 95 aircraft when it discovered China had reverse-engineered the fighter and was secretly manufacturing an indigenous copy, the J-11B, with Chinese-made avionics and engines.

There are strong suspicions China will procure the technological know-how of the Su-35 and Amur and simply produce an indigenous version.

But not all agree. Gary Li, a senior analyst at London-based IHS Fairplay, said China’s research and development have moved forward.

“It no longer will seek to directly reverse engineer everything it buys, but maybe adopt parts of the platform for other projects [and] integrate into domestic designs,” he said.

There also are concerns China wants access to the Su-35’s Saturn AL-117S engine, which is outfitted on the T-50, a prototype of Russia’s fifth-generation Sukhoi PAK FA stealth fighter.

However, Kashin said the risks of selling the Russian engine to China are negligible.

“An engine cannot be copied by obtaining a sample,” he said.

Li said he could envision Chinese aerospace engineers studying the aircraft’s engine and thrust-vectoring for future inclusion, as well as the Amur sub’s air-independent propulsion, but it will still be more than a decade before China will stop having to order engines to replace “worn-out ones,” as it has been doing with the J-11 and J-10 fighters.

“It always takes a few years before they can make a domestic alternative,” Li said.

Kashin cautions that a Chinese attempt to copy the Su-35, as they did with the Su-27, would be more difficult, “because this time, our Ukrainian ‘brothers’ cannot help them by selling the Chinese all the technology they lacked for a handful of dollars. I think the Amur situation will be generally the same.”

Ukraine has been accused of selling China former Soviet defense technologies, but it has no access to information regarding newer systems, such as the Su-35 and Amur.

“The Amur ultimately isn’t a strategic submarine, and as Russia’s interests in the Far East are not yet that ambitious, they can afford to sell them to China,” Li said. “How better to keep the U.S. pivot off their backs?”

The last J-11 crash I am aware of is in 2008. The last J-10B crash I heard was in 2011.

So far there was no J-10B crash !

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My conclusion is that J-20 cannot use China’s domestic WS-10 and WS-15 engines due to unreliability and must use Russian AL-31F and 117S engines, which gives Russia a control on the J-20’s production volume.

You can draw two conclusions from this report.

1. Chinese engines are unreliable, and this is the reason why J-15, J-20, and J-31 are all powered by Russian engines. The situation isn’t likely to change soon, and this gives Russia the power to control the production of these new Chinese fighter jets, or China must equip them with unreliable domestic engines.

2. Chinese fighter jet components are unreliable, and this is the reason why you hear so many crashes and technical troubles with China’s new jet development efforts like the J-10B, the J-11B, and the J-15. The J-20 sharing same components too is likely to be unreliable.

Unreliability of components can have a major effect on the readiness of the PLAAF’s combat jets.

And You all draw these conclusions from an unreliable link posted on pure speculations by an author known for his credibitity on CHinese things and even more surprising from a report about J-15 powered by Russian AL-31-engines !

That’s truely amazing, simply outstanding … but like said above, that’s “SlowMan” !

Sorry, but exacly these postings are what ruins in recent years the quality of that once amazing forum.

Deino

seems so !!! :rolleyes:

interesting theory seen here 🙂
The missile could possibly be launched with the door shut

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1568080-1-1.html

Really an interesting theory … something like that attached below !

That’s more than a fine decission but again – and I hope I did not offend anyone since my question was simply a question – bu I have that strange feeling (as also noted by Hurriyet) that in mind of the requirements, technocal capabilities, budget and most of all desired solutions (“something in the class of may be PAK FA or J-20, i.e two-engine, heavy and maneoverable”) …. isn’t this a simply unrealistic altitude on behalf or the Turkish side ???

A medium-weight class fighter similar to a smaller J-21/31 maybe but even this is a heavy burden … but something like a T50 !??? 😮

Deino

O.k. but to say it’s useless or worthless is a 100% personnel opinion !

I see mayne completel ylost and useless discussions here and all over again but if one has an interest and this and that whaotever specific it may be … whatever, we all have out certain interests, as such I’m a bit “disappointed” since I for my self I would liuke to learn what a certain serial on a NK bird tells what version or type it is …

Anyway … was at least an attempt.

Deino 🙁

I think the big deal is simply the fact alone that it is …

1. of all a “big” deal and as such a huge success for the Russian aviation industry.

2. a hint of the Su-35’s capabilities in comparison to the J-11B

3. a statement of or better for the Sino-Russian-contacs, which are simply – besides some harsh discussion in all forums – much more normal, stable and simply based on facts and not on emotions.

4. a surely wellcome boost for the PLAAF.

Just my 2 Cents