I disagree….if the ASTOR system performs as suggested then we will will be able to check every bit of dirt being dug up in Pakistan/Tibet at all times. No Satellite can give that coverage especially as India posses only a rudimentary military satellite network.

I don’t think India’s military satellite network is rudimentary. ISRO does not disclose which satellite has a military use, apart from it’s stated civilian purpose. Besides, ISRO has launched the Israeli SAR satelite, which is known to have military use. These keep giving sufficient intelligence to the armed forces.

Satellites provide pictures at fixed, known, intervals. They’re no substitute for ASTOR & the like.

You saw that’s exactly the main point of my post, if you took the trouble of reading it properly, before posting (which, you clearly haven’t). ASTOR-like systems provide real-time coverage, which is cost-effective during wartime and not during peacetime. Israel uses it as it territorially small, and needs continuous surveillance of it’s neighbours.

India does not need such a system, as satellite surveillance do the job cost-effectively for it’s armed forces in peacetime. Simply because X company has developed it, and X and Y countries use it, does Not mean that India must follow suit.

For you to call ASTOR ‘useless’ says more about you than about the system.

You would be advised to first learn to improve your poor post-comprehension, and then induced poor reasoning before any reply.

BANGALORE: Sweden’s Gripen NG, the last of the six fighter aircraft that are being evaluated by the Indian Air Force for the $12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, left Bangalore on Monday morning for the Air Force Station (AFS) Jaisalmer.

The above report by Mr. Ravi Sharma of the “The Hindu” newspaper is inaccurate. The fighters headed for Jaisalmer are NOT the Gripen-NG, but the older Gripen-D variants. Sweden sent the Gripen-D, as the shocking reality is that the Gripen-NG is still an experimental prototype and is undergoing tests in Sweden itself. It is reportedly not authorised to fly out of Sweden till it’s tests are done.

It is unclear why this open fact was omitted from Mr. Sharma’s news report in “The Hindu”, and an inaccuracy inserted instead.

It must be noted that the specifications of Gripen-D are identical with the Tejas Mk.1, i.e. empty weight (6.5 tons), internal fuel (2.5 tons), and 8 external weapons hardpoints. Avionics too are similar, what with Litening target pod, RWRs, jammers and digital FBW. Instead of an AESA radar, Gripen-D features a radar similar to the one being integrated on Tejas Mk.1.

In my view, it is thus a monumental shame, that the IAF still thinks that the Tejas Mk.1 is a “MiG-21 replacement”, whereas it entertains an equivalent foreign fighter as an MRCA-capable candidate.

I see. Back then there was no J10 for decades. Then J10A was better then JF17 and Pakistan would only get inferior J10’s. Now there is a story about them getting FC20 (improved J10 with western parts) that make you think twice. We have several claims about that but you probably need contract copy.

Arey, it is open knowledge that Pakistan is negotiating very hard for the J-10s (probably not the J-10B). I said, there is a murmur in Pakdef forum, that there is a stall in pricing. Pakistan wants to pay $25 million per unit, while China wants $40 million. The member who claims this, is a former F-16 pilot of the PAF. Now, if you don’t believe your own pilots, then I can’t help it.

Unfortunately you will not get that. About Jx or whatever. Do you think the Pakistani wait for a US degraded plane? I think you should use your own knowledge then asking something that the owner is not even willing to publish. Does China talking openly about it? I doubt that.

Mr. Rimmer claimed PAF will get J-XX, even before China has made it official or forget even offering it for export to PAF. If you’re so confident that you’ll get the J-XX without any Chinese confirmation, and despite haggling over the price of the J-10, I admire your optimism.

Besides, the plane in question is J-XX. Rimmer says it is J-XXX, which is incorrect.

As Rimmer said often, you do not have a single idea how to extract info from things that are written on the net or by own research.

Just for your imagination before you start typing:
What is included?
When will it be delivered?
What will be done inhouse?
What are the reasonable costs that can be added in the Chinese price?

Firstly, Pakistan has expressed interest in the export variant of J-10, called F-10 (I’m using the Chinese designation only, and NOT the FC-20 designation that was coined by Pakistan for some reason).

A difference of $15 million in the asking price is unprecedented and cannot explain ANY difference in the packages asked. A JF-17 costs $25 million — that too with credit taken from China, so in the long run it will cost upto $27-30 million.

After this, if Pakistan wants to pay only $25 million for a much larger and more advanced J-10 (even if it’s the export variant), it sounds perplexing. Anyway, the details are for you to find out, and do get your own facts right before posting on the JF-17 and J-10.

Let us return to a known plane. BLock52. As ACM said they are nice bonus but PAF is no longer tempted to put its eggs in that basket. So if Block52 (which is seen as a very good plane all over the world) will not be its MRCA then I bet a good/better FC20 will be. And I doubt the Pakistani are wiling to wait for 5 decades old JSF which will be degraded to 4.5 gen cause it might hurt India. I think they are beyond that planning level and that is what you get if you use and abuse a nation several times. The US made the JF17 happen. They made FC20 an intresting case.

You’re talking geopolitics above. I’m asking, has there been an unveiling of the J-XX, or even any announcement that China is willing to sell it to PAF ?

And I am pretty sure they will force Pakistan to buy Jxx(xxxx). And whether it is inferior or not. We will see cause none of us is able to judge it at this moment.

Let PAF buy J-XX at any time it wants. All I want is an official confirmation in the light of so many odds, like the massive credit on your JF-17 purchase, the “quarrel” over the price of J-10 and any info on the J-XX, that’s all.

Insig

Really dude, dont bother. Have wiped the floor with this guy on IAF and IAF Red Flag threads. He writes the first thing that enters his head or what he WANTS to believe, then the posting of facts keeps him quiet.

Well, I think I “pinched” a very sensitive and a raw nerve there. If you think SPADA 2000 of 20 km intercept range is a medium-long range missile, all the best to you.

As someone requested, best we not divert this thread.

I dont need to answer you anymore, you are making yourself look more amateur with every post. You cant see you just contridicted yourself in one post about SPADA2000 being shortranged…..

It gets really difficult to debate withsome who inhabits a alternative reality.

If in Mr. Rimmer’s definition, 20 km of intercept range is long-range, then I suggest Pakistanis can only hope that their army generals are not as handicapped, nay, crippled on very basic missile knowledge, as Mr. Rimmer is. It is ridiculous to the point of being laughable.

Have you read your own link that you posted ? The missile intercept range given by MBDA is just 20 kms. To give a comparison, Akash’s intercept range is 30 kms, Barak-NG’s range is 70 kms and the upcoming interceptor based on AAD will have a range of 120+ kms.

Last post on this.

Good you chose not to embarass yourself any further. I think you’ve learnt lessons from this, as well as other threads.

The Indians searching for intelligent anti tank weapons shows that they are trying to avoid tank battles in the desert (cause they do not have same numbers of night capable tanks, or same quality) and move towards indirect fighting…..And I do not think the latest Pakistani tanks can be beaten by these weapons so easily.

IA is inducting 500 units of indigenously produced Nag missile. It is a 3rd generation top-attack anti-tank missile. It’s chopper version is also being developed. Nag has proved to be very effective in trials.

Which to my knowledge is difficult cause by that you will not get control on the ground and there are ways to counter the weapons. Besides that it gives away the launch sites/aircraft which will be targetted by weapons like H2/H4/Ra’ad/Babur (all inhouse produced).

All sensitive installations will be defended against cruise missiles by Akash SAMs. Now, what will be the counterpart in Pakistan against Shourya or Brahmos ?

To stay serious. No modern fighter does use the last gains in avionics for technical reasons, because every item has to run through a specification process of several month or even years before finding its way into an aircraft. To get something working with reasonable cost a design and the related items are frozen at a date. Every fighter is in need of a mayor avionic upgrade after some years at all to keep pace with the general development. Even than the reworked fighters could not field the newest items, the delays from the specification process before in mind.
By that the Pakistani claim is correct. The JF-17 has the temporary advantage to be more modern in avionics the later start in mind. All that will even out or change with the next major upgrade in avionics of the related fighter. We have to keep in mind, related to the circumstances non will be in the lead in general. 😉

I disagree with the above. By the above logic, JF-17 is more advanced than the Rafale for example, just because it’s so-called “release date” is later than Rafale’s. Never mind the fact that PAC Kamra is once again thinking of negotiations with Dassault for a new age avionics package for the JF-17.

Your post above does not take into account open-architecture avionics. Tejas’ architecture is such, that it can absorb newer COTS components at ease, with minor changes. This ability keeps it up-to-date with latest avionics upgrades that can be come up at relatively shorter notice. This totally rebuts the argument given by Tejas’ detractors in Indian newspapers (and a certain member called Philip on BR forums), that Tejas Mk.2 will be “obsolete” by the time it arrives in 2014 or thereof.

Abinmanyu and Quadbike

In your first post about it you claimed PAF officers made detrimental unsolicited comments and acted “unproffesionally” all you can post is a link with PAF ACM commenting about the age of the LCAs avionics.

PAF Chief Kaleem Sadat was making unsolicited and uncalled for comments on Tejas (which were totally wrong by the way), without any verification and/or any confirmation of the same. Besides being wrong (which is the least important matter), he behaved thoroughly unprofessionally because the intent to compare and gain one-up manship is clearly visible by his comment (re-read his comment on development timelines for example).

This is no different from what goes on at our X vs. Y threads. And I’m glad, no IAF chief ever bothered to go down to his level and respond to him (in fact, ACM Major raised the bar by an honest opinion on the JF-17, which was verified by personal experience).

Again, you both constantly make claims you cannot back up.

It was backed up alright, by a popular Pakistani defence website.

Lets get back to the point of this thread anyway.

IAF has constantly publicised its exercises with foreign AFs and many IAF pilots “off the record” talk about how good they performed. Once things go the other way, we see an air force acting in the manner of a child that gets bullied in the playground. It does nothing for the IAFs image at all.

The above is inaccurate. The newspapers always claim unnamed “sources” who claim everything under the sun, be it IAF’s performance at Red Flag or Indradhanush, or a DRDO product supposedly “malfunctioning” in trials. These unnamed “sources” are mostly the media’s own creation, which claim that USAF was completely trumped at Indradhanush (unlikely to be true) or that Tejas is overweight by 2 tons.

What other air force actually rushes to the US embassy other a Youtube clip?

The above is inaccurate. Protocols demand that ambassadors are summoned. This was told to you earlier, but you are feigning ignorance.

Besides, what other Air Force issues an immediate clarification to the contrary and distances itself frm t’s own officer ? Speaks volumes about the regard the USAF has for IAF. Let’s see if they do the same for PAF, if PAF has to face such a situation.

——-

P.S. :- Members may visit the JF-17 page on the official website of PAC Kamra. There is a mention of Tejas in the same vein as ACM Sadat’s. What’s with the Pakistani obsession with Tejas anyway ?

Other Air Forces, including the PAF, USAF, and RAF are criticised on an almost weekly basis. The refute claims or let their actions speak louder then their words.

The above is inaccurate. Professional Air Forces may give constructive criticisms, that are at best kept at an Air-Force to Air-Force level, and not “ranted” on YouTube.

Secondly, the USAF clarified that the statement was only the personal opinion of the USAF officer in question, and not the USAF’s official view. The USAF declared that it held the opposite view of the officer in question.

Now, it is because of respect for IAF’s capabilities and professionalism command the world over, that the the USAF immediately issued a clarification without delay, by not only saying that it holds the opposite view of the USAF officer on YouTube, but most importantly, it distanced itself from the personal statement of the officer. For any Army, Air Force or Navy in the world, leaving your own officer in the “lurch” like this is very difficult and is done in the most extraordinary circumstances only. Hence, this shows how much the USAF holds the IAF in respect.

No need to rush to an embassey and demand a retraction. That is not the sign of a growing, confident air force, which I know the IAF actually is.

The above is also likely to be inaccurate. Rather, the USAF ambassador must have been “hauled up” at New Delhi and asked for an explanation (that’s what ambassadors are for). The IAF did not “rush” to the American embassy.

Now again, the sign of an Air-Force losing confidence is their officers “ranting” cheaply on YouTube. Any professional soldier in any part of the world would refrain from doing this. Indian soldiers routinely appear on TV shows, Talk shows, etc. but they don’t say anything disparaging about ANY other armed force.

The real shame about the whole episode is that in the future, pilots may be reluctant to express views on the record for fear of hysterical overreaction. Thats a shame and means we all lose out…

If a pilot wishes to be sidelined and “abandoned” by his own Air Force, then he can say any disparaging remarks. Otherwise, as mentioned above, Indian armed forces personnel are very vocal in the media (as are US military personnel) — but sans the disparaging remarks.

As a testament to the professionalism of the IAF, Air Marshal Fali Major appreciated the JF-17, when he sat in a JF-17 simulator at the SIngapore Air Show. He was frank and honest. In sharp contrast, a former PAF chief about 8 years ago, had the unprofessional attitude to make some unsolicited comments about the Tejas’ avionics (even though he had never seen been in it’s simulator in personal capacity). This contrasting episode speaks volumes.