AbhimanyuThe ACM of the IAF, Fali H Major states this – ‘When we start evaluations, the aircraft should have what we asked for’ – note at the start of evaluations not when the stuff is delivered. This for me will rule out Gripen NG and Eurofighter as AESA is one of the stated requirements and neither have one ready at the time of evaluation. In short it points in the direction of the American Jets and Rafale.
I think if Major wants AESA only, he must order individual AESA rdars for existing fighters in the IAF like Su-30 and even Tejas (as per Col. Ajai Shukla, Tejas was offered AESA radars by EADs last year).
It would be more economical than ordering entire jets, simply because they come pre-installed with AESA radars. It may be proof of how “hare-brained” the MRCA scheme may be (pardon the use of the word).
AbhimanyuRecently, a few very important announcements regarding Tejas were made. In my view, these will be the “turning point” in Tejas’ development.
The following are 2 extracts from recent news reports :-
“The areas of cooperation could include flight envelope expansion; testing for high angle of attack; aero database validation; external stores carriage with emphasis on stores separation; wake modeling and penetration flight tests; and refinements to existing simulation models.“
The EADS will offer its expertise in reducing the weight of the LCA’s undercarriage. (overweight by at least 1.5 tonnes).
1) “Stores separation” may undoubtedly mean dual launchers per pylon, and/or multiple bomb racks. This will increase the individual weapon stations on Tejas from 8 currently, to 10-11. This matches those on Block 52 F-16.
2) Tejas will reduce weight by 1 tonne, after it’s undercarriage is redesigned. This may also simultaneously increase it’s fuel capacity too, thus increasing it’s combat radius significantly.
3) With either of GE-414 or Eurojet engines (and Kaveri-Snecma after 5 years), it’s g-limts, top speed etc. is likely to increase from the present 6g/mach 1.6 to 9g/mach-2.
All these will make Tejas, Asia’s 2nd F-16 (J-10 being the first).
Even as these “path-breaking” changes take place, the EADs consortium will accelerate the flight-testing schedule of Tejas, which will result in faster induction of Mk.II version by 2012 itself — 3-4 years before the first of the MRCAs are scheduled to join IAF.
Thus, in my view, Tejas is poised to join the MRCA competition, albeit late. If the IAF has a semblance of long-term strategic thinking and responsibility, it must cancel the MRCA “sweepstakes” and invest all it’s resources & commitment to the Tejas Mk.II.
References :-
AbhimanyuIn my view, the Aero-India shows have been reduced merely to “parades”, where the MRCA contenders come every two years to “woo” IAF. The same excercise was done 2 years ago also.
It may be unfortunate that IAF is entertaining x, y and z from across the world, when a fraction of the $10 bn that it intends to “splurge” on this MRCA, could easily have been used to buy the best consultancy speed up the Tejas project, besides making a Mk.II version comparable to Gripen-NG or F-16 Block 52.
All these years, ADA has worked all alone, with the intended end-user, the IAF, pointing the “nose” the other way. At the 11th hour, it comes and demands from ADA that engine thrust is insufficient, the ASRs are not met etc. & etc. & etc.
By now, Tejas Mk.1 would have long been inducted and a Mk.II version commenced work. By now, MCA would have completed preliminary studies and scale modelling and testing would have begun.
Unfortunately IAF’s utter neglect towards indigenous industry has resulted in the slowdown of Tejas project.
In my view, this behaviour of IAF is irresponsible given that ADA is working for it, and not any other Air-Force.
AbhimanyuThey have already stated no more than what is already on order till the MK2 standard is achieved.
Actually, that is exactly what IAF must change in it’s “stubborn” approach to Tejas.
It is “high time” for IAF to shed “stereotypes” like ‘MiG-21 replacement’ and start viewing it as a proper MRCA capable fighter. It has already been acknowledged by noted aviation expert Mr. Hormuz Mama, Vice-Adm (retd) Raman Puri and ex-Scientific advisor Mr. Ashok Parthasarthy that because the Tejas is equivalent to IAF’s serving MiG-29s and advanced Mirage-2000s, it can indeed be an MRCA.
Now, with a redesigned undercarriage, it is undergoing the same curve that led to Gripen-NG from Gripen-C/D. Thus, it’s fuel is bound to increase, weight will decrease and weapon stations may also increase.
Hence, as Tejas will equate a Gripen-NG after 48 months of consultancy, it should be considered as an MRCA by the recaltricant IAF. **
Like I said the Tejas is currently not as indigenous as we would like it to be. The engine and many avionic and cockpit components, even the ejection seat is sourced from outside.
Please note that a Pune-based subsidiary of DRDO has already made a unique ejection seat for Tejas a few years back. MB seats are interim only.
As regards RLG and displays these have already been indigenised by DRDO and Samtel respectively. Besides, as components like seats, displays etc. are worth only few million dollars, are widely available and so are not sanctionable.
As regards engine, I think GTRE has expressed interest in completing the Kaveri via a risk-sharing JV rather than purchasing an off-shelf engine from abroad. As per your reasoning, I think Eurojet will have lesser “string attached” than any US made engine (should Kaveri fail to make it).
** Tejas currently equates Gripen C/D in empty weight, weapons load, and fuel. Thus, after redesigning the undercarriage it must equate the Gripen-NG.
This is not to say that Tejas in it’s current config is not MRCA capable. As repeatedly pointed earlier, it’s practical weapons-load and range are nearly equal to Gripen and F-16 in it’s current config also. But with undercarriage redesign, it will be ever more closer to these 2 MRCA contenders, which must make IAF “sit up and take notice”.
AbhimanyuSpitfire9, as per various news reports from last year, the empty weight of Tejas is 6.5 tons.
Cheapest and least capable and MK2 won’t be ready by the MRCA induction time.
If IAF shows the ‘will’ then it should be possible. Note that the Tejas programme has come so far largely with a “lackadaisical” treatment by IAF all these years.
Not when the current engines are American and proposed engines include American and European.
Actually GTRE wants to complete Kaveri engine in a JV with a foreign firm, which will involve equal risk sharing. However, it is as yet unclear whether a new engine altogether will be installed, or an improved Kaveri.
Engine news has been uncertain; note that a few months back it was reported that Kaveri will be relegated to ship turbines and is being cancelled for Tejas. But, later GTRE chief Mr. Mohan said Kaveri will be installed on Tejas this year. Similarly, there have been various reports on GE-F414 as also a JV for Kaveri — with no menion of whether IAF will choose the new Kaveri, or entirely foreign products like GE-F414 and Eurojet.
Over 200 planes would mean tech support won’t be an issue.
See, as in case of licence made T-90s, missiles, ships etc. contractual “quarrels” are very likely to arise in case of licence-made MRCAs also. These will be absent in case of state-run ADA. Again, it must be mentioned that figure of 200 is a rumour only, and IAF is committed to just 126 units.
Nothing in the MRCA case either. You are doing them a favour by choosing their products from a tough competiton so the onus is on them to show obligations if any. This is especially true for non american types.
See, choice of MRCA is unfortunately likely to be based on geopolitics also. Instead of “wrangling” in favour based dynamics, the choice of Tejas will not ‘hurt’ any of the six competitors (especially Russia), while allowing us to remain neutral.
AbhimanyuMRCA is going to be a different AC Abhimanyu. If the Tejas proves it worth it will have its good share of orders as well.
PAK FA
MKI
MRCA
LCA
See, it is not denied that Tejas’ “place” in the IAF is assured, and is independent of the MRCA contract. Some 150 units are already guaranteed. But if Tejas equates 2 MRCA contenders (namely Gripen & F-16) in range-payload requirements, then the IAF should have no problem in ordering an additional 126 units too, over and above the guaranteed 150 orders.
Tejas as an MRCA will have numerous benefits :-
1) It is cheapest of all the foreign competitors.
2) It is immune from sanctions, technology denial and end user restrictions (like F-16 of PAF) etc.
3) On demand tech. support, instead of a “long winding” process of contacting the manufacturer, “poring” through the contract papers to see if it is a valid request and then providing support.
4) No geo-political ‘strings’ attached, no political obligations etc.
OK I’m not well informed but I did not know that the EADS involvement was greater than input into flight testing. Why would EADS be asked to redesign the undercarriage? I would have thought that India had the expertise to do it alone.
I think you may refer to this latest news report, dated 28 Jan, 09. As per the report, EADs will also redesign the undercarriage of Tejas, as it is deemed overweight.
AbhimanyuIn my view, if EADs successfully redesigns Tejas’ undercarriage, then it would have 2 extremely important benefits :-
1) As in Gripen-NG, it would result in significant weight reduction and space for 2 more weapon stations.
2) As in Gripen-NG, it may result in increased fuel carriage also.
Thus, with reduced weight and simultaneous increased fuel, the range of Tejas will increase by atleast 50%. Besides, if it allows for 2 more weapon stations, it will actually rival the Gripen-NG in ALL respects. In range and payload, it will thus be equivalent to a running MRCA contender.
I think these are “signs” that Tejas is not only ‘inching’ towards completion, but also endeavouring to be considered as an MRCA competitor.
Abhimanyuthe official mentioned above is a naval aviator deputed at the NFTC.He is not an IAF official.
Indicom, actually it may only matter that he is a pilot who has test-flown Tejas numerous times. Regardless of whether he is from navy or air-force, it is important that a fighter pilot has given “rave reviews” about Tejas.
AbhimanyuSpeaking to members of “Team Tejas” after the flight, Capt JA Maolankar who is the Chief Test pilot of the National Flight Test Centre said “For a project that has so ambitiously pushed the envelope of indigenous technology, the results have been world class in many key areas. The aircraft is a pleasure to fly and has demonstrated enviably long range legs for an aircraft so small. The induction of most of the major new technologies has been remarkably smooth and the programme boasts of an enviable safety record. Great challenges lie ahead, especially when we take this aircraft to sea in the form of the LCA (Navy)”.
In my view, the above is IAF’s official confirmation about the Tejas’ excellence as a fighter. It is indeed “music to the ears”.
In my view, the boldened part about range is the best.
AbhimanyuDeino, as already mentioned by coldfire2005, the intakes have been added (photos were also posted earlier in another thread). They have been test-flown on existing prototypes.
coldfire2005, the IAF had literally been “sitting” on the MCA since 2003 upto 2008, when Dr V K Aatre was the DRDO chief. Since then Dr. Saraswat has completed his term and Dr. Natarajan is nearing his term’s end. Only in 2008, did the IAF approach the DRDO to re-examine the MCA proposal.
Please understand that the armed forces are not as “upright”, straightforward etc. as portrayed in hindi movies. Massive corruption exists in weapons procurement, and it is an “open secret” that money is to be made by keeping the services ‘addicted’ to imported hardware, instead of DRDO. Arms dealer Abhishek Verma (caught in $4 bn Scorpene scam and reason why our ship-building yards were kept idle for 1.5 decades) and former Admiral Sushil Kumar who was caught in the $1.5 bn Barak missile scam are only “tips of icebergs”. The current Army chief has also come under scrutiny for some highly questionable decisions on transfers.
The armed forces of Pakistan work in perfect sync with their defence researchers on all projects like Al-Khalid and JF-17, regardless of their ‘miniscule’ engineering input — and most importantly, are proud of them. The entire Pak public and media is visibly proud of HIT and PAC Kamra, as Pak newspaper reports show (note that Pak media is very free).
In stark contrast, in India the services stay at 2 arms length from DRDO and are NEVER seen co-ordinating with DRDO, to clearly specify as to what exactly do they want. This has led to Arjun ‘saga’, and we may hope that Tejas does not follow. The way the Tejas was developed is “shameful” to say the least. For the MCA, it may be hoped that IAF goes hand-in-hand with DRDO from the drawing board to the assembly line so that it never gets a chance to complain later. And for an organization that faces criticism for not developing what services want on time, DRDO would readily oblige.
AbhimanyuIt may be wise to skip the MCA altogether and develop the UCAVs. At least then that programme can finish on time may be. 🙂
See, the MCA will be developed on time if the IAF and Govt. give it commitment and approval in the first place. It must be noted that the MCA proposal has been pending before the IAF since the past 3 DRDO chiefs. Thus, the onus is on the Govt. and IAF to “cut red tape” and give it necessary approvals and funding, so that DRDO can begin work on it “asap”.
Hence, the “ball is in IAF and MoD’s court”.
AbhimanyuThe following is an excerpt from a post from Bharat-Rakshak forum. It is posted by moderator Arun S, who received an e-mail from another moderator Rahul M, who detailed his private visit to “heart of India’s aviation industry”.
The following quote is posted as is :-
a) LCA making good progress and experimental program to accelerate in the next two months.
b) Amazing (indeed groundbreaking is a better term) progress in Hypersonics both at IISC and NAL EAD. The HSTDV program has been made feasible is all I can say for now. Full flight test in 3 months. Modified Agni-I boost to 40km and then a 20 second burn using hydrogen injection across strut based injectors. Wind tunnel tests completed.
c) Pathbreaking advances in plasma drag reduction techniques (what we read briefly in the news etc) that reduce missile drag by 30% during reentry using the most simplest of techniques. In addition, the temperatures at the surface are reduced dramatically so that heat shield no longer needs to be as bulky as before. Reduced weight as a result leading to dramatic new values for the missile fuel-mass values.
d) Active noise control helmets for the LCA under design. These will cut out the engine background noise completely so that the pilot can listen to AWACS controls etc more clearly in the thick of combat.
e) Significant progress on the CABS AEW radar electronics. Aircraft integration studies underway.
f) Micro-UAV designs being studied at NAL for the Army.
g) Chetan Helicopter undergoing flight tests.
h) Some activity seen on the Avro “Hack” with regard to LCA MMR. (Though that was out of bounds for me, so not many more details here)
i) New self compensating aero-nozzles for SLVs and Multi-stage missiles. Reduces overall requirement for different stages with different nozzle area ratios and increases fuel carriage and so shows exponential increase in range for the same design sizes. In wind tunnels right now awaiting flight tests.k) Base bleed studies underway for reduced missile drag. Also in wind tunnels at NAL EAD.
l) A new fixed wing design aircraft being designed at NAL. Very hush-hush, I am told. They wouldn’t even tell me what the aircraft type was!!
g) NAL designers are talking of a new large body civilian airliner type aircraft project about to begin.
h) NAL collaborating with GTRE now for advances in afterburning engine nozzles. Also, NAL now beginning studies in turbine blade perfromance. They seem to be bypassing GTRE on a number of issues. This is something that became increasingly obvious after a few hours of talks with the people there.
Reference :-
AbhimanyuScooter, as increasingly greater avionics can be “packed” into streamlined and modularized units, the size will not matter in this regard.
The F-16 is ‘large’ in size only due to it’s capability to carry heavy nuclear weapons and cruise missiles, which require a very strengthened frame, which in turn requires a large size. Otherwise, carriage of conventional weapons does not require jets to be larger than Tejas.
AbhimanyuNew Engine, modifications to house the new engine etc. and also better avionics and weight reduction according to IAF. But good to know radar integration is proceeding well.
The above is inaccurate. No new avionics are needed other than those already being integrated by ADA (it has the latest avionics comparable to Gripen and Typhoon). Modifications to house a new engine have already begun, as the new auxillary intakes have shown.
AbhimanyuTejas needs a new engine only. Radar integration is proceeding alright.
Sign In
